This has been brought up several times in the PA Google hangout, that the current documented standard isn’t what should be in place, but I’ll make this post to formalize what has been discussed and to provide some semblance of objective criteria to make determinations for area vs points.
For Cemetery places the current standard per Wazeopedia is as area places. My proposal is most should be points, not areas except in the cases of significant historical or tourist interest.
For sake of consistency, my thought is that:
Any “National Cemetery” as an area place https://www.cem.va.gov/cems/state.asp?State=PA
Any that have been designated as National Historic Landmarks
Have a marker erected by the PA Historical & Museum Commision (those Yellow on Blue metal markers at historical sites, like this http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?MarkerID=19586 ). Some counties and municipalities also put up historical markers similar, but if the idea is to capture “significant” I think keeping at the national or state level makes more sense from a consistency standpoint. Additionally, the marker should be for the burial grounds, not an associated religious center.
My own preference would be that burial grounds with significant road frontage (1000-2000 feet along any adjacent roadway) would also be mapped as area places, as they serve as a good visual indicator to match your positioning with that shown in the app. This may be too subjective in practice to codify however. That being said, if there’s can be some agreement for this too, all the better.
Agreed. Glad you brought this up. This is similar guidance for churches/ religious centers: if the location is historically significant, etc. then we map as an area place; all else are points.
Religious Center as Point Place (can be area if landmark or other criteria)
Pennsylvania is free to make its own standards, but it does make it harder for other editors coming in to help or just edit on a vacation trip or business trip.
My philosophy is to Keep It Simple, sometimes stupid (referring to me) is added to the end to make it K.I.S.S. So if there is a change I would recommend that it be Regional vice just one state since it is hard enough to keep up with each region vice every state.
Please note that these are just my thoughts as a visiting editor. I will follow whatever guidance the PA SMs and NE RCs promulgate.
Interesting topic! Cemeteries have a long history of being contentious. From sacred tribal lands to slave burial grounds to shrines for the military - both victorious and vanquished. Within WME, there is a global standard for mapping Cemetery’s which follows the KISS principle. We map ALL cemeteries as Area Place regardless of race, creed or historical contribution (military, academic or other). The Dakota Access Pipeline is a prime example of a fight regarding disturbing sacred tribal lands.
The proposal is draw up a complex set of guidelines to determine certain subsets of people to be more deserving than others of having their cemetery mapped as an Area Place. The primary focus being those who fought in the military AND are buried at a State or National cemetery solely dedicated to the military. This would exclude Service members buried at smaller local, ethnic, or religious based cemeteries.
The current guidance is Simple. It does not discriminate based on religious, ethnic or historical contribution to society. As Thomas Jefferson said when he penned the Declaration of Independence; "All men are created equal’.
With regards to Wazeopedia guidance, I’m not opposed to making cemeteries Point Places. But if we do, then we apply the KISS principle and make ALL cemeteries PP.
The definition we are proposing is what was nationally agreed to from the beginning of places . I don’t know when it was changed to area for all. I suspect it was a transcription error when the wiki page was created.
I agree with eaglestailg8ter. There’s no compelling reason to drop them to point, and it avoids contention and confusing rules.
Generally, the need for points is driven by visual map clutter. Cemeteries that would be dropped to points are not so overwhelmingly common as to make this a real benefit.
I’ve really enjoyed the different viewpoints. This topic has come up frequently in the PA Hangout, I’ve seen edits changing some cemeteries to places that I felt should still remain as area places and thought some sort of uniform standard should be applied if it is going to deviate from national standard.
There are a large amount of cemeteries that were designed in the rural style, which function as a park as well as a final resting place. It is not uncommon for people to use some of the paths as running trails to enjoy the landscaping and art of some of the burial markers with limited vehicular traffic. These would make sense to make areas.
To be honest, this post was more to spur the discussion and hopefully build a consensus on what should be done, to follow the rest of the national guidance (my preference, as well as a few of you on here) or to provide objective criteria for history or significance.
Great discussion everyone. I agree with the KISS viewpoint. There are better items for ongoing discussion (IMO) than evaluating the merits of each cemetery. If one becomes cumbersome, we can explore how to best map visually as needed.
PA deviates from National Guidance on many levels. Lets not add another one to make us different and the PA map more complicated than it already is. I’ve already noticed a large number of cemetery’s converted over to PP from AP that no longer follow Wazeopedia guidance. Every type of map out there (paper as well as digital) maps cemeteries as a shaded place. This is the industry standard.
For clarification, the way I read it that the proposal to make cemetery places as place points (PP) in Pennsylvania has met contention and is not being considered any longer. All cemeteries in PA should be area places (AP). Is this correct?
If not please let me know. (I recommend codifying in the PA state wiki)
If I am correct above then I would think that the editors changing AP to PP should be notified to stop and to follow the wiki. Changing the cemeteries back to AP would be nice too.
Sorry dumb editor here, I have no idea what something was supposed to be during discussions. I just know that the Places wiki states "Professional and Public - Cemetery - Area " as to whether it is to be a place point or an place area.
I also know all the cemeteries put in by staff and never updated from an auto import in my region are areas.
I also know that sometimes discussions and the final version are different.
So till there is a change to the National guidance on cemeteries, I recommend that you either come up with a regional guidance or stay with the area. It is hard enough keeping up with the regional differences let alone State unique ones. Ex. what is the lock level of a ramp? Highest connecting segment, L4, L5, something else??? As I said at the top, dumb editor here so I am a big fan of Keep It Simple, sometimes abbreviated K.I.S.S. with a stupid thrown on to include me.
The criteria above to figure out when to do an area place and when to do a point place is pretty complex and requires a lot of research. But I am just a visiting editor in this region so will defer to what the Region’s leadership decides.