NY Protocol for Handling UR's

The topic of closing UR’s seems to come up every once in a while in the GHO group, and about how there is no official guidance for the exact procedure that should be followed when making initial contact, waiting to send a response, and closing out URs. A few of us have been talking about it, and decided it would be best to start a discussion to formalize the rules for UR’s statewide, and get it added to the Wiki pages so that we are all on the same page. We need to come up with a minimum timeline for reminders and closures that we all agree on as editors as there seems to be some dissent about what is best at this time.

Note that this discussion is for statewide policy. It has been discussed the possibility of later adding on specific protocol for NYC due to the different nature, and sheer volume of UR’s that are encountered there. That is a discussion for a later time.

Based upon discussions with other editors, and my understanding of the general guidelines for NY, I present the following draft guidelines for the Wiki pages:

Please let us know if you disagree with any of the timelines I have posted in here, and any other changes/additions you would like to see in the Wiki page regarding handling of UR’s

-Warren

I like the idea of this discussion… And I agree with your assessment of what my understanding on the general timeline is currently .
I feel the Reporting Wazer has no idea of what happens then they press the button. I get a lot of responses with very little info because they think we already have enough info to answer the UR. I have also noticed I don’t get a response until after the reminder has been sent. So in my humble opinion a slight longer time line is warranted. I am in favor of a minimum of 7 days before the reminder can be sent and an additional 7 days before the close for no further communication.

If I can suggest we keep in the timeline topic until we get some consensus before we tackle other UR related subjects…thanks all John (JD)

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So thank you guys for starting this discussion last night in the GHO. This is definitely an issue we have struggled with for a long time. My thoughts:
-long term I would like to have a unified policy for the entire state including NYC, but I do not think we are in a good place at this time to be able to stretch out URs to 2 weeks for NYC. we don’t have the necessary number of active editors to handle the URs and struggle depending on your zoom to see them all. I feel at times a little overwhelmed by the sheer volume but this starts a different thread topic so I won’t continue.
-it is important to remind people if you do have a response from an editor you should reset the clock on closing it, I sometimes use my own discretion based off their response if that is appropriate but I think that is the exception to the rule
-with many states having the general practice of if a UR is over a week old feel free to pick up where the other editor left off I think it would be good to include some wording to address this. Personally I am quite fine with having other editors pitch in.
-one thing I don’t see mentioned that I think is important is an emphasis on the new URs some states have rules that they would like all new URs started within 36 hours. I think the more we can quickly respond to new and fresh URs the better response rate and better resolution rates we will have. As a recent discussion pointed out we should be focusing on on our efforts on improving our solved rate

Overall I think this proposal is great but I like to have a little more time to get the NYC area better controlled before such rules would go into effect. Our efforts have been notable with on average about 2k less URs each time a report has been run for the state but I think with the two map raids recently we may have stunted our progress a little.

Just my 2¥ worth
-John

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4+3=7 is too short IMO. Unless we have a mapraid or statewide issues with the volume of URs impacting the performance of WME (like in NYC), we really need to strive for at least 7+7.

In other states (Delaware and Virginia come to mind), a 4 + 4 policy has been used for some time without controversy or problems. Specifically, we try to respond to all new URs within 1 day, send a reminder 4 days after initial contact, and close the UR 4 days after the reminder if there has been no response. Waiting longer does not seem to improve the response rate; if the reporter is going to respond at all, most of the time they do so fairly promptly, but 70-75% of the time you get no response.

Incidentally, working towards making the initial contact within one day would do much more to improve the response rate than waiting longer for responses to old, old URs.

I want to thank everyone who added to this thread so far. My only reservation to closing to quickly is my personal conversations with friends on how they as wazers use the app.
They do not have email notifications on and they only get them in the app. Which is why we get such poor resopnces. The user has to look at the notification to see our reply and if they only use the app for longer destinations they might not turn on the app for over a week.

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From my experience, the initial contact being made as quickly as possible is in my opinion one of the most important pieces. Waiting too long for a reporter to respond will be more difficult as the reporter may have forgotten exactly the reason/cause for their report in the first place. Also, they were at least motivated enough to go through and press the buttons needed to get to the report, the closer we are to that “motivational high” may also help as they would hopefully carry that motivation into giving details into their report. Having a relatively short follow up post is also important for the same reason.

Also, I personally feel that once a user reports then to help in the process of doing UR’s - a UR is free game for anyone to tackle until after the reporter responds or if there was sufficient information to being taking action in the initial report. This means that just because I put in the initial request, anyone can post the follow up reminder, if the initial contact was just to gain more information. Once more information is provided, then if someone wants to take responsibility for it, they can. Of course, that is my own personal feeling, though some users such as DwarfLorddo have some nice UR responses if you wanted to “butt-in” to another report - though if I was concerned, I would probably just send the person a PM asking them if there was anything else needed to be done.

If it is felt that +4+4 is too short, then to accommodate that there may be users that do not use the app as frequently, I would recommend having a second reminder (1+4+4+4) be sent out then before closing the report if it is the initial request for more information. After the initial reporter responds back, again that is when a person can take responsibility for that report and then another +4 reminder or +4+4 set of reminders can be given again.

I agree 100%, and I know most of those editing in my area at least feel the same way. A lot of times an editor will comment on a handful of UR’s, then may get busy for a week or 2, and I don’t feel the user should suffer as a result of an editors busy schedule. If anyone has any argument to the contrary I’d be interested in hearing it just to hear both sides of the argument.

Seems most people agree we should also have a longer lead time between responses to allow for more users to have time in responding. Any downsides to doing so, other than more UR’s staying on map longer, which is not necessarily a bad thing once we get the backlog under control.

I would advise everyone here to read the existing pinned topic about handling URs in NY. That policy, while vague in some areas, has never been superseded. I’m not saying it is set in stone, this discussion is good and can contribute toward changing it. But it behooves us to know what the baseline is before we propose changes. Yes, it should have carried into the wiki long ago, but that’s the way it is, and nobody ever fixed that until now.

I agree that it is vital to bring initial editor response up. That said, I’m sorry, russ, but 4+4 doesn’t cut it here. I don’t know if it is the mentality of our driers or something else, but many editors have found responses to work on long-dormant URs, even where there was an initial editor response that was ignored. Perhaps we have a lot of drivers who only use Waze infrequently. In rural areas where you may have an actual problem but not enough driver density to get multiple reports for it, we need to give them a chance.

OTOH, we know that we can’t leave every UR open long-term. I saw suggestions of a potential NYC versus rest of state standard, but it is deeper than that.

KTCAOP, I understand what you are trying to propose with 4+4 vs 4+4+4. Bu I don’t really see any need for 3 follow-ups just to bring the reminder down to 4 days, with one particular exception (see below). Honestly, I just see the 4 day versus 7 day debate as one of “how fast can we close this” versus “how long is safe to assume the user should have opened the app and seen a notification since initial response.” Also, as far as “butting in,” there’s something to be said for allowing the initial responder a chance to retain ownership, especially for newer editors who are still in the honeymoon stage.

Here’s how I deal with it personally (and not always in compliance with standards). I look at UR density. If I have very few URs in a large area, then there’s no harm in leaving them open long-term. If there are a great many URs in a small area, then getting them closed out is very important for several reasons: 1) It may indicate a problem, we need to attack the URs aggresively. 2) WME will slow down if there are too many URs. 3) WME will not display all URs if there are too many in a certain area. 4) It is hard to manage overlapping URs. 5) It is hard to read the map overall when there are so many URs.

So we really need three rules, nothing to do with NYC. Low density, normal density, and high density (which will naturally cover much but not all of NYC and other high-traffic areas). We’ll have to define what Low/normal/high mean, and we’ll have to develop a policy for each.

A strawman for discussion:

  • low density: less than 5 URs at zoom 2. Response+7 reminder+6 months to close. Must have one final reminder within 7 days of closing unless there have been >3 reminders already and at least one in the last 30 days. Stretch goal of response in 2 days, but in rural areas, we know that response within 2 weeks is more likely, and many will not even meet that due to coverage issues.

  • high density: more than 5 URs at zoom 6 or more than 10 at zoom 5. Response+4 to remind+4 to close. Goal is first response within 1 day, and to try to hit the 4+4 as consistently as possible (i.e., close within 9 days of report).

  • normal density: anything else. Response+7 to remind+minimum 7 to close, but no need to be overly strict about getting it closed. Stretch goal of response within 1 day, but 2 days is fine, and 3 within reason.

Some secondary policies within this strawman to modify the above: 1) If there is a tight cluster of URs sent over a period of 3 days or more, then there is a potential unaddressed problem. Aggressively visit the site (daily) and respond to every UR as quickly as possible. Until the problem is clarified: Reminders every 4 days even in normal/low density areas, and allow up to 30 days before closing even in high/normal density areas. 2) If a UR is due for a reminder or closure but was initially responded to by someone else then 2a) if the action is less than 4 days overdue, PM the initial responder, 2b) if the reminder is 5-7 days overdue then post a friendly reminder that acknowledges the original responder (even if it was due for closure), 2c) if action >7 days past due, don’t worry about the initial responder. 3) If you see a UR responded to by someone else that you think you have an approach to solving that the original responder does not seem to recognize, then 3a) if there was already a reminder sent, and there is a risk that the initial responder may close the UR before you can work on it, respond nicely that you may have a solution that you will work with {original responder} on to fix the problem, then PM the original responder with your suggestion and/or with a request to take over; if no response to PM within 4 days, you may take over at will. 3b) If there is no initial reminder, same applies, but initially only send the PM, without posting a response in the UR.

All the above may seem complex, but I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all approach that works well. And this is just a strawman to get the discussion going. You may all hate the whole thing. Or you may like it but come to a consensus that it needs tweaking. In case you haven’t guessed it, the aboe is close to my own practices, but that doesn’t mean it is necessarily the best overall solution.

Ok I will take the bait for the strawman

I think more than two options will be too complicated and we can just simplify things by defining in advance these high and normal zones (county, region or current stats on UR count - but have State Managers Define) to add other criteria to define these areas i think will be unnecessary for state guidelines, but acceptable for individual users if they choose (Since UR count at a zoom could fluctuate based off closings, screen size/resolution, or just where you centered on the map). I would like to see these areas be fluid to be able to respond to shifts in the waze landscape and change our criteria.

Low/Normal Density 7 + 7 seams fine close day 15
High Density Density 4 + 4 also seams fine close day 9, with editors discretion for longer

I think clusters are important tool to look at but also currently some of the clusters we have are because of volume of traffic and gps issues on ramps and service roads which do not necessarily benefit from longer collecting. So editors discretion. I like other editors may not have the free time to visit hot spots daily, which is part an issue of needing overlapping coverage, but also not practical guidance. I think every 4 days reminders for these hot spots is a little obsessive, but additional inquiries may be warranted.

If we can get the backlog down in these high density areas we should be able to spend longer and closer examine them all. I think we all seen occasions where things may have been overlooked.

in terms of other users jumping in i have seen a variety of practices across the country on that, I think if you have exceeded the closing time (14 days low density, 8 days high density) send a friendly reminder or close if appropriate. Jumping in if you know the solution is an etiquette issue too complicated for explicit guidelines other than to be respectful in your actions.

Overall part of it is everyone has there own style. We have our own responses we use and as long as the editors meet our guidelines I really dont care how they tackle the URs as long as we are improving the map. We also see plenty of different levels of editors tackling URs which translates to different skill sets to analyze the data. Our priority to should be solve issues and not close the URs but recognizing that currently there does exist areas that the volume of URs are impacting the performance of WME.

Thank you qwaletee for summarizing some thoughts with your strawman, hopefully this helps build upon that.

and for the older pinned topic for those who may not have seen it

John,

There is one problem with wide discretion for editors. It will inevitably cause conflicts between editors with different viewpoints who work the same area. (Or perhaps worse: one editor who is AM, and a differing editor just passing through.)

We have seen this over the last few years using existing national guidance and, prior to that, lack of guidance. “This editor just zapped a bunch of URs I was working on, and wasn’t a newbie or points farmer.”

One of the discussions we had recently in the GHO was keeping open URs for data collection in an area. I’m personally not a fan of it as I feel using a [NOTE] is a far more universally accepted technique, but then you loose the GPS tracings.

Even in the NYC area we have multiple editors with slightly different opinions on how to handle URs and many overlapping AM. We have had discussions on how to handle URs which is part of what helped spur this recent forum chain.

If a visiting editor is causing problems that seams more of an either etiquette or national guidance issue. Current wiki has some loose language of how multiple editors should handle update requests. And if an editor is going to be active in an area for a while it is a good idea to reach out to local leadership.

I rather have guidelines of when another user can join in so that editors understand where there practice may result in another editor zapping their URs.

I don’t think wide discretion was ever intended as the concept with my earlier comments just that if you are in a high density zone and want to wait 5-7 days posting a reminder that is fine with me but if it’s been left unattended for over a week I might hop in and get the ball rolling. It is a common practice especially with the NYC and LI editors to help with each other’s URs as there is too much for anyone to claim all their own.

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All of these suggestions are great… And given that this morning’s total NYC scan has over 10,000 Total URs we have a long way to go…

My idea for leaving a UR around for awhile comes from a few experiences where after seeing a UR and following time protocol removed it. Then working the area starting to notice a pattern at that location. But by the time I realized the pattern I had timed out and deleted the others.

So when presenting a map change I got push back due to the fact that there was not supporting URs to say there was an ongoing problem.

It seems to me that as NYC goes a lot of the big black and white problems have been solved, now more of the little tweaking is happening.

So URs play a role in proving that a problem exist. Most of this is really only for local Editors. Local as in working a area all the time.

I see that some of our helping SR Editors are starting to see patterns just because of being around.

But as I started with until we start clean with only a manageable amount of URs and a team of dedicated Editors to work on them we are shoveling URs against the tide…

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I stand corrected 8,700 URs

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YOu can turn a regular UR into a [NOTE] - just include [NOTE] somewhere in one of your replies.

I still maintain that 7 days total is far too short for URs. We’re all volunteers, including the reporters who make initial contact, and frankly a 7-day turnaround for communications is not unreasonable. Unless solved with a comment describing what you did to solve it, no UR should ever be closed before it is at least 14 days old.

That being said, we have observed the need to accelerate this schedule because the volumes of URs being generated in those areas are actually eroding the performance of WME. Targeted editing situations, like MapRaids, typically have to be accelerated as well, since MapRaid only lasts for a limited time, often in the order of a dozen days or so.

The point is we should not be messing with 7+7 for URs unless we have a compelling reason to do so, and can make that point across easily discernible conditions, like NYC limits, or a MapRaid, for example.

Ok so I just read back through these posts, and aside from NYC editors (which largely boils down to a density issue), it seems the general consensus is that a time period of comment, 7 days reminder, 7 days close, for a total 14+ days from initial comment (assuming no response from the user). I like the idea of using 2 cases of low (normal) vs high density as was previously pointed out.

I do agree with JDesola in his point that UR’s will help in justifying an ongoing issue to senior editors, but feel that these are the exception rather than the rule. I’ve come across a couple similar cases in which may close a few UR’s initially, but as you start to notice a trend we can either leave a few open to show that trend, or start to point it out to senior editors as you notice 1 or 2 UR’s popping up complaining about it so they are aware of it. These are the type of issues that could be handled on case by case basis, and you could even add a comment stating something along the lines of “We believe this may be an ongoing issue, so we are leaving this report open as we look into it” so that other editors are aware not to close it immediately.

One main thing that still seems to be up for debate is how UR’s by another editor are handled. I think most editors in the metro area (JDesola, JSNinja, Rfrsw, etc) have come to an agreement that with the large backup of URs, any UR that we come across that is ready for response or closing is fair game. I definitely see the benefit of allowing the original editor to continue dialog with the user though, both from the users perspective, and from a new editors perceptive. I know that as a new editor it would’ve been a little intimidating to have more experienced editors jumping onto my UR’s before I could spend the time to look into them.

I have modified my original draft with these comments in mind.

7+7 previously meant to be min 7 days from 1st comment to reminder, then 7 min days from reminder to closure. That will sometimes be 14 days total (if things are super efficient), but could be longer if the reminder came late. Otherwise, it could lead to absrudity such as:

1st comment - April 1
Reminder possible on April 8, and theoretical earliest non-responsive closure is April 15
No reminder sent
On April 15, 1st reminder sent
Another editor, also April 15, sees that 14 days have passed, and closes UR same day as first reminder sent

Hi All,
Thanks Warren for trying to spearhead this subject.

After a lot of reading and I think Great Meaningful replys I have come to the conclusion that our intention has been set off track.

There might be some reasons for a change to the policy as a whole but what I think we were looking for was a general guideline that the NY Editors could refer to on the NY Wiki Page that would be a suggested way we should handle URs…
Understanding that a traveling editor might not know what we do as a normal way but as new Editors join our efforts we could refer them to our consensus … What we as a team think works best for us…

So I believe Warren put forth what I think we have been discussing in the GHO as a group… And what I was hoping was we could get some help on wording it in a way that it could be put up one our NY state wiki page as such…

And if you guys think some more discussion is needed then lets have it…

I do agree with Dovid’s last post that I would not want it to be misinterpreted the wrong way so maybe the wording in the final draft needs to be a little more clearer…

Thanks again all for helping with this project, as you know URs are the life line of Waze and we need to get this right… John (JD) Brooklyn NY

Here’s an unsolicited attempt at rewriting the proposal for simplicity and clarity (wiki mark-up included). Note that I have not touched the question of how many days to allow for responses, etc.; and the proposal only addresses the timing guidelines, not the substance of how to resolve URs.

Editorial suggestions welcome.