There are two one way (same direction) lanes separated by the monorail. You can only make left turns from the left lane and right turns from the right but cannot go between them in between cross streets. Would drivers get better directions if we split the lane or would that just add too much confusion (esp when trying to route from one lane to the next)?
As a side question, is this the best sub for these types of questions? There doesn’t seem to be a lot of users here.
I am loathe to do this, but because of the disallowed turns, perhaps it needs to be.
As an aside and a caution to this, there is no way for Waze to tell the driver to turn onto a specific side of 5th without seriously kludging the map. Thoughts?
My first thought is that an intersection like the image below with the appropriate turns allowed MIGHT work but without ever using something like this I can’t be sure the verbal directions won’t be confusing.
I’m confused why this is necessary and how will it actually help guide the drivers onto the correct side of 5th?
I really don’t know how to depict what I’m thinking to be honest. I was hoping that the above image would clarify but I guess not. Let me see if I can clarify with teh words. In the above image the upper lane would allow for the turn north onto the cross street but the lower lane wouldn’t. The turns from the cross street to 5th would be allowed at one of the intersections. The bowtie would allow drivers to switch between lanes on 5th at that cross street (if, say, their next turn was south for example) or continue forward in their lane. As a driver navigated down 5th, it should put them in the correct lane for whatever turn they had coming up. My only concern is they’d get weird directions when continuing forward in their current lane. Am I over thinking this?
A correctly-built bowtie would give no instructions for switching to either side of 5th. To get drivers to switch, if that’s even allowed…, you have to have them separated, which would give a ‘turn right, then turn left’ command.
I see your idea would be to try to get a “stay to the right” command. But i don’t think that will ever work with the current routing code because 5th connecting to 5th at anything less than near 90 degrees will be treated as “straight ahead” I think. Unless we kludge and stick in an unnamed segment in the angled part.
Are you even allowed to “switch sides”? I see some intersections with the “no turns” signs on the side next to the oncoming cross traffic.
I made a rig to play with designs: https://www.waze.com/editor/?lon=-122.41707&lat=47.63192&zoom=5&env=usa
I hadn’t considered that No Turns might also indicate someone shouldn’t go from one lane to the next as well. I have to admit, I’ve driven this road exactly once a long time ago. I thought you could switch lanes at the intersections based on what I remember but you know how remembering goes.
So do you think that the intersections that allow for one side to turn on a cross street are where they intend that side to be able to switch sides too? or that they never intended that? If that’s the case (that they don’t want people switching) it’d make the setup easier I guess.
I have driven on that street this year, and the white lines between each pole is meaning you should not cross it. If you heading south you can not just “cross over”. I see it as two separate lanes (split lanes) then the turn restrictions can be set correctly.
Jemay, do you think that where there are not white lines at the intersections, you could cross over?
Because of the No Left or No Right turns. I would not put a bowtie at each intersection. If you “change lanes” you are making a left or right.
So, according to this article:
I still think it’d be best to “allow” it at intersections, imo.
So lane switching is allowed between intersection but not at intersections? That suggests we don’t even have to do anything to 5th. Waze won’t be able to track correctly with the small distance between the sides. It would be up to the driver, just like any turn, to make sure they are in the right or left lane prior to the intersection so that they can turn right. Otherwise, we’d have to create lane-changing segments between every intersection. That would be a huge mess.
I personally think you can switch both between intersections and at intersections since a lane change isn’t a turn. But you may be right that we don’t need to do anything and just let the driver figure it out. We’ll probably still get the occasional UR there saying a turn isn’t allowed though.
Could try a “swap-over” lane between each side once between each intersection and restrict the turns at the intersections appropriately…
It looks like someone took it upon themselves to split it. You’re pretty much stuck in the lane you get in with this setup though.
In WA state it is technically allowed to change lanes in intersections, and since you are on the same street, you are probably"legal". There’s grey area though.
However I would consider this maneuver highly unsafe. 5th is typically a very busy street, and intersections are places most people don’t think to change lanes, or expect others to. This could cause confusion and danger to both driver, and other vehicles around them.
Also, though technically legal, if you do change lanes in an intersection like that, and police see you do it and deem your maneuver was “unsafe”, they do still issue tickets for it. Encouraging mid-intersection lane changes is not a direction I would recommend.
(Also, apologies for taking action here. I saw the report and this seemed the safest-to-driver way to manage. In the future I will look/bring here for conversations about “odd” areas like this. If its deemed this should not/does not work to keep drivers safe, it should be backed out)
That’s for jumping in here, @KovuCougar. While I agree that the road layout now is more like what’s on the ground: 1) I don’t see how that helps anything because drivers aren’t directed to which side of 5th they need to be on to ensure the next turn is legal, and 2) it’s more complex.
Based on two of the 3 mapping principles of Waze, I don’t see why the current split method is any better than a single segment. I would like to get someone who actually drives on 5th (or can make a trip with navigation guidance on), to give feedback on the nav guidance and visual aspect.
No apologies necessary @KuvuCougar. I was just updating those in the discussion about the street.
IMO, I think that telling people to change lanes in between intersections would be confusing because many seem to think it’s not ok even though, as stated above, is legal. But I agree with AlanOfTheBerg, it’s probably best to defer to those who drive it, like jemay.
There’s a small segment in San Francisco that is somewhat similar, but it’s only a block long.
Still, it has the same sort of problem of needing to route you to one side or the other, without the GPS being able to easily tell which one you’re on.