Speed Limits in CT

Map Editors Community United States Connecticut
1

So, it appears there’s some confusion about speed limits in CT and I wanted to open up a discussion to the public at large so we can figure out the best solution.

AndyPoms recently found a helpful list of approved speed limits posted on the ConnDOT website, broken out by town. This makes it easy to know exactly what the speed limit should be for all major roads in the state. Unfortunately, the reality is that posted signage can sometimes contradict this list, such as when towns decide to put up their own signs or during long-term construction projects.

Obviously, the best solution would be to notify ConnDOT of any incorrect signs and have them take care of it, but that could take eons. So in the meantime, how should we handle it in Waze? Do we map to the list and cause confusion among drivers when their speedometer doesn’t match reality, or do we map to the signs and hope no one gets a traffic ticket because they assume Waze is legally binding?

YOU DECIDE!!

2

With all due respect to the official lists, we all know that they are often incorrect. Most of us have come across street signs with spellings or other issues that do not match GIS. I have been taught to apply the wording on the sign and use the GIS name as an alt to reduce confusion with the theory that what occurs in real life takes precedence. If we choose to use the OSTA speed limits only we do controvert that previous concept of allowing actual signs dictate what we apply to our map. I do not necessarily support this concept in principle but that has been the mood or intent of Waze to my understanding. I would just ask for consistency.

3

There’s always going to be controversy when you have conflicting sources of truth.

As Sanzclew indicates some consistency is needed – is the intent of using Waze as a navigation app to attempt to be the source of truth (i.e., superceding posted signs) or to be an aid to information existing on the road? Clearly as map editors we want to supply information which is legally correct but. . .

#1 Waze Terms of Use has as its first key point:
“Road information prevails. The information provided by the Service is not intended to replace the information provided on the road, such as travel direction, time based restrictions, lane restrictions, road blockades, traffic signs, traffic lights, police instructions, etc.”

It may be true that the official lists are what are enforceable in court, but by intentionally editing to different standards than those posted on the streets, it seems that we’re also intentionally creating conflict.

#2 As eaglestailg8ter pointed out in local conversations, the CT General Statues CT Gen Stat § 14-218a (2014) states “The presence of such signs adjacent to or on the highway or parking area for ten cars or more shall be prima facie evidence that they have been so placed under the direction of and with the approval of the Office of the State Traffic Administration.”

It is quite possible that when there is a discrepency that signs have been erected without the required process and approval of the OSTA and is therefore is not legally enforceable (i.e., won’t hold up in court).

However, this statue also indicates that a driver legally could be pulled over and ticketed for violating a posted speed limit. Then the onus is up to the driver to prove that the sign was not legally erected (if the driver knows about the process required to erect signs).

If the posted limit somehow ends up faster than the “official list” limit you can’t really be legally ticketed for violating the official list limit given that the posted limit is prima facie the legal limit (even if not legally erected). And if you do, you can still argue that you were driving the prima facie limit.

#3 From a pragmatic standpoint, how does an editor respond to a UR that says that the SL on Waze is not matching the SL posted on the street? It would be going down a slippery slope to say “Waze is correct here, please see the official list as the street sign is incorrect” as that effectively goes against that first key term in the TOS.

4

I was under the impression that the posted signs that we see within WME’s street view is old or missing in most cases. When that’s the case, (missing signs or old date on the WME SV) the best alternative is to use DOT data.
Now, I’m hearing that there are major conflicts with the DOT data and the posted (Current or up to date signage).

My question is:
How do we inventory of all those posted signs and that they are current (not based on the old WME SV image).
Also, how many conflicts are there in between the actual signs on the roads and DOT data

5

I like to look at it from the drivers perspective. Waze is a popular app for many reasons, but one is the fact that it helps people avoid tickets from speed traps, red light cameras, speed cameras etc. I see quite a few URs related to miss-information related to poorly placed or missing cameras in New York as this is something they care about and want to have accurate info from waze about. There have been numerous URs in CT as well about SL signs not being correct too.

A driver does not care if the ticket he just received is enforceable or not he cares that he got pulled over and is either going to have to pay a fine or waste part of his day fighting a ticket. While yes the state should have only legally enforceable SL signs posted, this is probably far from a reality any time soon (and I will go with the waze definition of soon). The process Andy has done for feedback to the state is commendable and if he wants to do that, more power to him. It will probably hep build a stronger relationship with the state and could be useful for other projects in the future. But in the mean time we have no clue how long that takes to fix, if it actually gets fixed etc.

I also think from a drivers perspective we need to have a uniformed process across the country and if we think a Federally Approved Speed Limit Sign is the gold standard than we need to have that across the country because drivers use this app to go from state to state. I also am not 100% convinced with the way the wording in the state law is presented regarding driving conditions that one is guaranteed to win an appeal of a speeding ticket.

Currently the only way we can get any info on the conflicts is by BOTG which multiple editors have been doing. I think a feedback mechanism to Andy that there are conflicts is fine and that he can work on things from his end to try and rectify that, we could create a spreadsheet for monitoring these areas, i am pretty sure that changes in signs will be reported by drivers and not only us (I-95 construction zones for example).

My proposal, Speed Limits are based off the State Document, please verify with street view there are no discrepancies and if there are make note on (fill in here ______) document/form. If BOTG confirmation of a discrepancy exists the slower of the two will be used and again noted on (fill in here ______) document/form. I hardly doubt that we will encounter cases where the posted SL is higher than the regulatory approved one, but still i think the process of should hold true. The goal is to help minimize the chance a driver ends up talking with a police officer. We are not attorneys (well Im not at least) and I feel presenting information to the driver (our client) in the most meaningful manner is what is best. And our data is hardly going to stop someone from speeding (although maybe someone can ask waze to look at historic speed data on segments pre and post go live it might be an interesting social experiment).

Remember speed limits are still very new, CT is one of the first states in the USA that went live, there will be mistakes and changes to the data and process over time but the important part is to ensure a constructive discussion on how to adapt to the new challenges we find.

6

Importantly, I agree that this should probably not be a CT-specific decision, as this issue exists in other states.

Having a state-specific decision would cause even more confusion amongst both editors and drivers, particularly since many editors and many drivers cover multiple states and regions.

7

Using only the official state SL list is a good start, but what do when part or all of a street is not covered on the list? For example Browning Rd in Norwich is 25 MPH from Rogers Rd to Yantic Ln, but is not on the list from Yantic Ln to Bozrah town Line.

8

I am very interested to have some guidance on this situation as well. There are some roads in Brookfield and Bridgewater along my commute that fit this - state documents don’t cover the entire route and the signs in the areas not covered claim different limits from the areas that are documented. :?

9

If a street is not listed on the CT OSTA documents AND the town does not have a blanket approval (if they do it would typically be at the top of page one of the town listing), then the road does not have a specific speed limit. HOWEVER, there are other CT statues for “driving unreasonably fast” that apply.

Anyone can post a sign, but for it to be enforceable it has to match the list. Being good neighbors, we’ve already worked with CT DOT on several cases where signs don’t match the list. CT DOT handles the signs on all numbered (signed & unsigned) roads, but the towns handle the signs on the local streets - and are not supposed to post signs on roads that have not been approved (i.e. not on the list). Now I’m not going to pretend that the towns are just going to take the signs down, I would say that they would probably fill out the paperwork to get it approved once it’s been pointed out to them.

10

We have a unique situation here in CT with the existance of an “official” CT-DOT Speed Limit list that supersedes posted signage -legally in court. - I see several issues…

1. Posted speed limit signage does not match the CT DOT list in some instances.

2. The list does not cover ALL CT road segments. These segments have posted SL signage, but can’t be added to the CT WME due to current guidance that the CT-DOT list is the only mapping resource for speed limits.

[quote=“jaywazin”]
There’s always going to be controversy when you have conflicting sources of truth.

  1. Some CT towns have not updated their contribution to the CT DOT list. Is the virtual map up to date? CT is mapping to a virtual map where the rest of the USA is mapping to posted SL signage in SV.

    As Sanzclew indicates; "some consistency is needed – is the intent of using Waze as a navigation app to attempt to be the source of truth (i.e., superceding posted signs) or to be an aid to information existing on the road? Clearly as map editors we want to supply information which is legally correct but… "

  2. Recent discrepancies between the Posted SL and the CT-DOT list were brought to the attention of DOT by AndyPom(6). Within 3 1/2 weeks, the speed limit signs in Wallingford were replaced and updated to match the CT-DOT list. It is proven that the process CAN work and DID work in this case!

I propose the following update to the CT Waze Wiki. Speed limit guidance based upon road type:

1. Street & PS should be mapped using posted signage found in SV as the PRIMARY resource. The CT-DOT list is the secondary resource. I don’t believe cross referencing these segment types to the list is a wise time investment. These bulk of the segments missing from the official CT-DOT list are found in this category. Adding posted SL’s for these (2) Road types has more pro’s than con’s.

  1. mH and MH:. Cross reference SL’s to the CT-/DOT list. Consult SM’s when discrepancy’s are found. If the segment is not on the DOT list - the default “WAZE” speed limit shall be the posted limit. If the segment is on the DOT list, and the SL values do not match - POST ON WME the LOWER of the 2 speed limit values (CT-DOT list vs posted SL signage).

  2. Freeway: Edit ONLY to the CT-DOT list. Notify SM’s if there is not a match with SV image. Do not add SL value without a match. Defer to SM’s or CM’s.

  3. Create a Google Doc listing all Connecticut SL discrepancies.

Thanks for reading my post!

11

How about Exit road types with white SL signage? Most are either yellow signs or none, but there are some with enforceable white signs.

12

Good Point Frank. Ramps are typically associated with Freeway of MH segments and locked at the same level. I would treat them the same as the corresponding segment they are associated with.

13

I agree with Eaglestailg8r’s suggestion above. As a user traveling from state to state, my expectation is that Waze will match the signs I see, or the statutory speed limit (if any) if no signs are present.

While I get that the CT list is a valid defense in court, the sign is prima facie evidence of a valid limit. A police officer could issue a ticket based upon that sign in good faith, and I’m not particularly interested in taking a day off of work and traveling to fight a speeding ticket based on a legal obscurity that most Wazers likely won’t know about.

14

I’ve discussed this with the Staff at length, they want the LEGAL speed limit in the app (i.e. the one from the list). They are also reviewing the TOS due to something that was pointed out in one of the discussions about this.

Per CT DOT, the list rules. Incorrect signage (whether accidental or illegally posted) can not be enforced (see Eagle’s section about US-5 above).

It covers ALL approved/valid speed limits in the state. It is possible for a road not to have a speed limit, in that case, the more general statues apply (driving too fast for conditions, criminal speeding, etc).

That’s not how the list works - Cities and Towns MUST get approval from CT DOT OSTA to set/change a speed limit. The list is updated when the permit is granted by OSTA. This is to prevent a City or Town from dropping the Speed Limit without justification (creating a Speed Trap for revenue). Per CT DOT, “Only the Office of the State Traffic Administration has the authority under statute to establish speed limits on public streets so all approved/valid speed limits are listed on our website for both the state highways and town roads/city streets.”

Very easy to add a tab to the existing CT SL Doc.

There are some Ramps on the CT DOT list… I skipped over them when we did the first run (but they are noted on the CT SL Doc - see Signed & Unsigned Tabs - most of those cells have NOTES if you hover over them).

Right now, today, let’s get the LIST mapped as it stands town-by-town. We can always go back and add/edit/update/work with CT DOT & the individual cities/towns on discrepancies, etc. It’s much easier to start with no SL on the streets & then update than it is to work with data that’s already there (highlighter will show no/unverified SL, but it won’t show WHAT the SL is).

15

There is still a gray area I’d like confirmed / clarified.

It covers ALL approved/valid speed limits in the state. It is possible for a road not to have a speed limit, in that case, the more general statues apply (driving too fast for conditions, criminal speeding, etc).

Example: Town XX has a road AA with posted speed limit signs of 35 mph. Road AA is not on the CT-DOT list. That would make that speed limit sign unenforceable. Due to the fact that road AA Is not on the list – I’m assuming guidance is to not place speed limits in WME for road AA, even though there were posted speed limit signs. Am I interpreting this correctly ?

16

As that speed limit has not been granted a permit (i.e. approved) by CT DOT OSTA it is not a legal sign. At this time, don’t map it. **UNLESS that town has a blanket approval on the CT DOT OSTA list (if there is one, it would be at the top of page 1).

Right now, all I’m saying is let’s get done what we know is legal and then we can deal with everything else later.

17

Wow. Weird. So that means that drivers and police need to consult the official list of speed limits when deciding how fast to drive / whether to ticket?

Cops won’t ticket according to the posted speed limits?

Is there any way to know if any changes have been made to approved speed limits in the town of Wallingford since October 18, 2010?
Or is it best to assume nothing has changed since 2010, the speed limit sign I recently observed IRL on Miles Rd was illegally installed by the Town of Wallingford, and remove the SLs I recently added to the segments?

18

Yes, remove it. The CT DOT OSTA updates those documents when the towns file for a permit (it’s mostly a rubber stamp from the state, but the review is there to prevent stupid speed traps - the kind where a road drops from 45 to 20 for a few blocks for no reason whatsoever).

It’s one of those laws you are expected to know.

They can ticket, but it won’t hold up in court.

Please note, we’re doing the list FIRST, and are working with CT DOT & the towns to correct errors we find. We can always go back and do more.

Do you have access to the CT SL Tracking Doc?

19

It’s very very strange to imagine a town putting up an illegal speed limit sign without getting that rubber stamp from the stamp. It is also hard to imagine that NOTHING has changed since 2010 in Wallingford. It’s right outside North Haven, for goodness sake. Does the state fine the towns that illegally post unapproved speed limits? Very had to wrap my head around it.

so strange that there is not some kind of enforceable speed limit covering publicly-maintained roads in Connecticut

This seems to imply that drivers may assume that, if a conforming speed limit sign is erected adjacent to a highway, road, or parking area for 10 or more vehicles, then it does in fact represent the speed limit approved by the state.

I don’t have access to the sheet. I don’t expect to do very many CT speed limits, but if you grant me access I’ll be happy to list the discrepancy in Miles Rd (and remove the SL until such time as putting a speed limit on Miles road can meet community guidelines).

Once the state is made aware of a discrepency, how quickly have they been updating the lists on their website?

20

I don’t think any one has done a solid review of this in a long time - we’re feeding info to CT DOT OSTA as we come across things & they have been very receptive. This is only the 2nd potential issue on a town road - and I’m still drafting the email about the first one (only discovered about a week ago & I’ve been busy with work).

Incoming PM.

In once case, the state verified the list was correct in one day & they replaced the signs in 3 1/2 weeks. Yes, the state actually changed the signs.

P.S. I fully expect the towns to just file the proper paperwork when adding something that isn’t on the list (or just apply for a blanket which some towns do have according to CT DOT) to cover all other roads.