A user report has come in about this right turn from Stanley St, for the right turn onto Vulture St. The turn is viewable from streetview.
I drove the intersection and made the turn myself last night. From looking at streetview, it does not look legal and can see why it has been red arrowed, but after driving it and thinking further about the issue, I think the turn is legal.
Turning right from Stanley St onto Vulture St is not a u turn as the driver is not going back onto Stanley St, so the driver is not performing a u turn at the lights.
Unfortunately, the dotted lines do not guide the driver from Stanley St to Vulture St, which gives me pause about this issue.
What are the thoughts of other editors about this issue?
Can you show me the road rule from the provided link pdf? The document is the Qld Road rules from the Department of Transport and Main Roads.
That document you have provided reads to me very much like how a person go about actually drawing the lines at an intersection, as in responsible for laying out the intersection.
I also notice it says, should contain all lines.
As for Google maps does not permit the turn. Google maps is so often wrong that it should not be used as source for anything, except maybe as streetview.
I dont think it is. I would say you are doing a U-turn there whether you do that onto Stanley or Vulture St. The guide lines show the right turn onto Dock St.
My understanding is that they will only allow U-turns at signalled intersections if they are able to control the traffic entering the reciprocal direction. In this case Dock St has a Turn left anytime with care lane which is then uncontrolled from a signal point of view so traffic turning there can conflict with U-turning traffic which I don’t think is kosher.
Because I don’t know how the lights work here and it is a big intersection, I think it would be hard to argue with a police officer that it is a safe turn to make given what TG said about the turn restrictions from Dock St.
I think you can safely turn from the right lane of Stanley St onto the right lane of Vulture St, whilst traffic from the slip lane of Dock St either enters or gives way to traffic in the left lane. That is how slip lanes work.
But I think this is all dependant on whether we regard the turn from Stanley St to Vulture St as a u turn, or not. Unfortunately the Qld road rules do not define what is a u turn, but they lay out examples. Very strange.
As I have said, I do not think this is u turn. The turn is not coming back on the same road as it came from.
I have decided to amend my position and go with the intersection layout and say that the right turn should be not allowed. Whilst I am not completely convinced it should be illegal, I think from that definition and the layout of the turn lines, if TMR wanted drivers turning from Stanley St onto Vulture St, they would have added the dotted lines.
Since I made this post back in August 2017, I have since been through this intersection a lot and noticed many cars, ambulances and other vehicles make the right turn from Stanley St onto Vulture St. There is also a right arrow which is connected to the right lane, for the turn.
Therefore, since my last post, I have adjusted the turn settings.
There has now been a new report come in. I refer the two editors to this discussion and subsequent updates.
I would be very surprised if you do not get some vanilla, take no position, do not fully comprehend the question response from TMR.
So you are likely to get some junior burger response where they give you some auto fill answer.
Thank you for your enquiry about this intersection, according to our records the u turn is not legal at this intersection.
If that response is given, that does not help us. The u turn is from Stanley St and goes back down Stanley St. And this would then needs to be explained to TMR and you would most likely get someone else who replies again and they put about 5 seconds worth of thought into their answer before responding, most likely without even checking the previous correspondence.
Thank you again for your enquiry and follow up. We have done further research and based on your further information, we can confirm that there is a right hand turn signal at this intersection for cars turning right.
Please do not hesitate to contact us further if you require any further assistance on this matter. And on it goes. Without them ever actually answering whether the right turn from Stanley St onto Vulture St is legal, because either:
A) They do not know
B) Answering yes that it is legal and then there is a crash, makes them legally liable
Lets look at her answer for this intersection alone:
Well from my looking at the left turn from Stanley St onto Graham St, there is no turn line, but there is a lane arrow and a turn signal.
So from Tilly’s answer, this turn is illegal.
Then if we go back to the right turn from Stanley St onto Vulture St, the drivers are making the same turn, again without the turn line.
So, either the turn into Graham St is illegal, which it clearly is not, or the turn onto Vulture St is legal.
The missing part of Tilly’s answer is that she is not actually quoting a section and division of the Transport and Main Road rules.
As we have debated on here. We have quoted what is a u turn and that does not fit and we have looked at other areas and they do not fit either.
Another area that needs to be asked is, if this turn is illegal, why are cars, including emergency services vehicles without their lights and sirens on, making this turn all day and night long.
If the turn is illegal, why is the turn not marked illegal, or there is enforcement of its illegality?
For me if I was driving there I would think that the (almost) U-turn is illegal. The turn lines show a turn onto Dock St. It is a signalled intersection with no U-turn permitted sign. BUT I say wait until TMR responds to PMG801
I will respond to this now since PMG has responded how he has.
This thread has history and it needs to be read as the history is important.
I do not disagree that when you are sitting in the right hand lane, it can look like that the right turn to Vulture St is illegal, even with that no u turn sign, but that is not how a u turn is defined.
And I have covered, for even this intersection that the turn lines do not cover all situations.
Also, drivers, at every light cycle, are making the right turn from Stanley St to Vulture St. If this turn was so illegal as claimed, then the police would be there to nab people for making the turn. Instead, I have seen emergency service vehicles without lights and sirens make the turn.
The u turn is from Stanley St, right turn and go back down Stanley St. A u turn can not be from Stanley St, right turn to Vulture St. A u turn can not start from one street and end up on another street.