Straying further off-topic. Maybe a mod wants to split the toll road discussion off into a new thread?
Here is how I believe that Toll Roads need to be implemented:
In the client:
New setting related to Toll Roads:
Always Avoid
Always Allow
Prompt
If you set a route that could route via the toll road, respect the Always options in the settings. If set to prompt, give a pop-up that says - ‘The current route includes toll roads, do you want to avoid the toll road?’
Alternative routes function needs to have some type of graphical indicator to specify which route(s) have tolls.
In the editor:
New attribute on all road segments to mark as a toll road
Checkbox that specifies that that particular segment is toll
To be decided:
Who can mark a segment as a toll, all editors? Those with only a certain editing rank?
Should ramps also be classified as toll or only the road itself?
Are there any special requirements for toll bridges vs. toll roads?
How are carpool/HOV lanes to be handled that also have a toll component? For example in San Diego, part of the I-15 freeway has a carpool lane that is also a toll road. If you have x number of passengers you ride for free, otherwise you need a toll transponder and the HOV lane is toll.
If Waze recalculates the current route due to missed turns or to get around traffic, should you be re-prompted again if you have setting set to prompt or should Waze respect your previous selection?
I do not think that amount of the toll should be part of this implementation nor be maintained by the Waze Map editors. Only toll or no toll.
For example, the hi-lighted segments on State Rte 125 here in San Diego are on a toll road. The roads that cross under are not toll. How can a landmark ‘cover’ the toll road and not affect the crossing streets?
Also, we have turnpikes here in the United States that run for hundreds of miles across entire states. Making a single landmark that covers the entire road but not the non-toll roads is not feasible.
In addition, I don’t think that assigning penalties to toll roads will give a 100% chance of Waze not routing on the toll road. It needs to be an independent field and not related to the current system of routing cost and penalties. If I don’t want to go on a toll road I really DON’T want to go on a toll road. I don’t want Waze to route me on a toll road when I told it no.
You have antoll transponder that is pre-loaded with money and your toll is automatically deducted from your ‘account’ when you pass under a sensor. The transponder generally mounts inside your windshield. Fully automated. No stopping. No traffic jams. No needing to have money with you.
If you don’t have a transponder no toll is deducted and they do some type of confirmation with cameras that you met the minimum passenger requirements. Otherwise you get fined and a ticket in the mail.
I don’t know how it works if you have a transponder AND the minimum number people that qualify for FREE…
But you are right, for simplicity the road should be marked as toll and the Wazer can figure out their individual situation. Although sometimes a route may include a couple of toll roads with different situations and it may be difficult for the Wazer to know which toll routes have been included in the route. Complicated by the removal of the text based Navigation List in Waze 3. The Toll roads could have a symbol by them in the Navigation list to call them out.
Actually, they’re still in the stone ages and violation enforcement is done by CHP officer, not by camera. No ticket in the mail, just if you get caught driving as the only occupant in the car with no transponder, you’ll be pulled over and ticketed there.
If you have a transponder but are carpooling, they give you a little bag to put the transponder in that makes it so the detector can’t “see” it so you won’t be charged. Either that or you can just stick it in the glove box for that trip, lol.
I do believe on the 125 toll road they are doing violations by camera. You may be correct regarding enforcement on the I-15 HOV/Toll lane. On the 125 they also have the ability to accept payment by license plate vs. transponder. No first hand knowledge of this.
Little bag? I had a FastTrack toll transponder at one point, put it in the glove box when carpooling on the 15 HOV/Toll lane and was charged anyway.
In the permalink that I gave there are several options on tolls:
Collect via FastTrack toll transponder at point of toll road entry (multiple points) or at the beginning or end of the toll portion of the highway
Collect via toll booth with cash or credit card at the southern end of the toll road. Sometimes there is an attendant, otherwise machine.
Collect via automated terminal at mid-entry point
The example permalinked here does not have free access. Only toll.
If you are talking about putting landmarks at each entry point where there could be a toll, that is likely not any easier to manage than checking a box on the segments themselves. Actually checking a box on the segments would be easier since you can hi-light all of the segments and check the box one time.
The automated toll collection system doesn’t know how many people are in the car. That needs to be independently verified by a human or human/camera’s. Basically it’s the honor system until you get caught and get a fine bigger than paying the toll many, many times.
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While I fully understand that factoring in the price will be very complicated and should not be necessary for implementation of tolls 1.0, ultimately I think the goal should be to take into account the price. I neither avoid all tolls nor accept any tolls that are on the fastest route, rather I want to decide whether the toll is worth it to me. Basically this comes down to how much time the toll road saves me, a calculation perfectly suited to waze. Ideally I would like be able to tell waze how much I am willing to spend for a minute saved and have waze calculate the best route.
Many of the toll roads that are being built around Washington DC are being built with private money with the promise of being able to charge the toll to drivers that wish to avoid traffic. The whole point is to charge more when there is more traffic. Although, most of these toll roads are not yet in operation, there is no question in my mind that the toll schedules will be very carefully crafted to make it as difficult as possible for the average commuter to tell when taking the toll road is good deal or is not. The prices can vary based on time of day and may be essentially abritrary for each combination of origin and destination for the toll road. Many of these roads will simply run parallel to a non-toll road, so it will be a great advantage to have an app to track the tolls and tell you when its worth taking the toll road. This will be especially advantageous where waze is basing a calculation on real time data, if the tolls are set using historical data. Waze could allow you to beat the system. I understand that there are many issues that waze should address before adding toll pricing into routing calculations. However, as the infrastructure foundation for toll roads is laid in waze, I would urge that being able to ultimately factor in price be considered.
Could be handled by splitting the road on the toll bridge/tunnel for one road in each direction and only checking the toll box in the direction of the toll.
I am not aware of any other GPS solution that offers this functionality. I suppose an opportunity for Waze to shine.
But as you note, maybe needs to be considered to handle in the future. But we have been waiting for avoid toll road functionality for 2 years now and can’t delay further by over-complicating by have to deal with toll amounts.
Basically this requires additional logic:
Settings in Waze to specify how many passengers, axles
Time of day
All of this being crunched and presented to the driver on whether to accept or not
Exponentially more complicated if multiple toll roads on route
In addition, in the I-15 HOV/Toll lane example here, the toll changes based on heavily loaded the road is. No value that can be calculated by user input. Exactly the situation you are describing. In operation now. Virtually impossible for Waze to calculate unless Waze has a direct data feed with the toll provider.
Which unfortunately is out of the scope of the way Waze is currently implemented. You are asking for a general GPS application that allows you to have input on the route vs. taking the fastest way with traffic factored in. Waze is to avoid traffic and get you there fastest vs. having direct control over your route. This is of course if Waze has gathered enough data from other Wazers and the maps don’t have problems that are affecting the routes.
Maybe Waze is confusing the situation with the ‘learning routes’ concept… Even if it does learn your route, there is no direct control until the route is learned and shows up as a viable option in alternative routes or is actually the fastest route under current traffic conditions.
Many other GPS application give you more control over the route you want to take. Some even give you a map where you can drag the route to edit it. Some give road block and avoid road xyz options. Etc.
Yes, but on the 125 it is strictly toll-only, it doesn’t matter how many people are in the car. On the 125 they take a picture of your license plate if you don’t pay.
I-15 isn’t toll-only, it is free for carpools and toll for people driving alone. Using cameras for violation enforcement in this situation it would be significantly more complicated, not that they haven’t toyed with the idea. For now, the I-15 Express lanes are only enforced by CHP officers, I promise I am 100% certain of this… don’t ask me how I know.
The FasTrak transponder should have come in a metallic-looking bag that blocks it from being read. You can also wrap it in foil.
This is how the HOV lanes on the I-15 here in San Diego are priced. The price is done by distance, but it also takes into account traffic congestion in the general purpose lanes. The idea is that the price is higher when congestion in the general purpose lanes is higher, for several obvious reasons.
It would be impossible to keep these prices up to date. They are not on a set schedule, as non-recurrent congestion is not on a set schedule. The price is displayed on several signs on the freeway and it can literally change every second. Trying to include these toll prices in Waze would be an exercise in futility.
I understand. I am giving two totally different examples and mixing both examples in the same thread. Yes, much easier to make a decision to fine on no-pay on the 125.
But gives specific details on how complex the issue is of Waze tracking toll data.
Exactly if the toll is changing every three minutes, I need an app to tell me if the road is really worth the money. Waze could still calculate value by user input, it would just need the real time data. Seems like a situation perfectly suited for waze to shine. Its not impossible, the toll is supposed to be based on the congestion on the road, data which waze should know. On the other hand, a direct feed with the toll provider is also an option that should be pursued.
Or maybe the transportation authorities will be so good that there really will be a price per minute saved that they keep constant and whether to take a toll road will become an on/off decsion. Somehow, I not too hopeful that this will come to pass.
Well it really works that badly you are wasting a lot of time (as am I and many others) racking up worthless points editing and trying to make the Waze experience better :!:
A direct feed with the toll provider would be the only logical option, I think.
I think that relying on user-input (in this situation, I’m assuming you mean that users are able to update the toll price in Waze when they drive by the sign?) wouldn’t be a good option. Typing on the phone while driving is illegal anyway in California, plus I can see it frustrating users if it isn’t up to date.
Another thing to consider is that a toll road being “worth the money” is really a subjective decision. It may be worth $5 for you to avoid 5 miles of congestion, whereas avoiding 5 miles of the same congestion would only be worth $3 to me. I’m not sure that this is something Waze is going to be able to do.
