Kingsford Smith Drive

[PMG801]

Has anyone discussed splitting some parts of Kingsford Smith Drive?

[GarvinGray]

@PMG801

Has anyone discussed splitting some parts of Kingsford Smith Drive?

About two years ago, give or take a year, Kingsford Smith Drive was fully split. Then there was a major discussion on here between theclem54 and myself, plus a couple of other editors, and the decision was made to unsplit the entire section of Kingsford Smith Drive.

Any street or road should either be completely split or unsplit. It should not have parts where it goes from split to unsplit and back again, or vice versa.

This wiki has the guidelines on splitting and unsplitting practices: https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Splitting_roads#When_.28Not.29_to_Split_a_Two-Way_Road

But a general word of warning or caution about splitting a road that is currently unsplit. When a road is currently unsplit, it is easy to allow u turns and disallow turns at an intersection. As soon as you split the road, your task of allowing or disallowing a u turn at an intersection becomes much more complex than just pressing the u turn symbol.

So to split the road, you need to have very good reason, discuss it in the forum, comply with the wiki and also usually there needs to be user reports come in that state there are issues with the road and that changing the road is going to be beneficial to the overall user experience.

[PMG801]

Will it be split when roadworks are complete?

[GarvinGray]

@PMG801

Will it be split when roadworks are complete?

As the road is now undivided and not creating any user reports ASSOCIATED with the road being undivided, the burden lies with you to show that dividing the road will improve the waze navigation/functionality/routing and providing the best route possible to drivers.

This link is your go to guide and I will refer to it: https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Splitting_roads#When_.28Not.29_to_Split_a_Two-Way_Road

I am unsure why you want to undivide KSD, except that you believe it will improve the map, somehow. So now I am going to take you through the link above in dot point form.

Retention

Because Waze users drive over them, road segments retain certain information (e.g., average speed) that is used in route optimization. When a segment is deleted, the information in the segment is discarded. Given a choice between deleting a tangle of segments and creating new ones in their place, vs. untangling them and reusing them, it is better to “recycle”.

If you now divide KSD, you will lose all the speed data for some or all of KSD. Will your dividing of KSD improve KSD that much that it makes dividing worthwhile?

When to divide a two-way road (and when not to)

Generally, a road should be un-divided unless it meets any of the requirements for dividing a road. When initially reviewing whether to divide or “un-divide” (merge back together) a roadway, consider these points first:

1. The default representation for any roadway is a single 2-way segment, even if the physical roadway is divided. Dividing a roadway carries with it the burden of proof that the change will improve the usability and/ or simplicity of the Waze map.
2. If a road is currently working with no problem reports, consider leaving it as is.
3. If the area has an Area Manager, consult with them before dividing/un-dividing. If the area does not have an Area Manager and after reviewing the formal guidelines below you are unsure which way to go, consider sending a permalink of the road to the map editing forums to get additional feedback from other editors.
4. Try to avoid switching roads back and forth between being divided and 2-way. For example, if most of the road is clearly divided and only parts would be considered a single two-way road, consider leaving it all divided. If only a small portion seems better off divided, consider keeping it all 2-way.

1. As you can see, the default representation is a single 2-way segment. Can you meet the burden of proof that the change will improve the usability and/or simplicity of the Waze map. This to me means that with the road undivided, when allowing a u turn, we can just click on the u turn symbol to allow a u turn. With the road divided, with have to go through the u turn prevention mechanisms. Or create bow ties, which can then create more user reports because reporters are saying that the map does not look like the road, or is generating false turn reports. Which is easier, clicking one symbol to allow a u turn, or ‘the other way’.

2. Is the road currently working without generating any user reports associated with the undivided road, that dividing the road would fix?

3. You are consulting with an Area Manager now and we are going through this process. But there is an extra layer. KSD was divided and then after consulting with a State Manager (theclem), the decision was taken to undivide the entire length of KSD. So you now have to show clearly how dividing would benefit the map.

4. Are you proposing dividing all of KSD, or just a part of it? If it is only a part of it, you need to be careful of this section. As KSD is all undivided. You need to show how dividing all of KSD improves the map, otherwise KSD will be divided and undivided in parts.

A road may be divided when any of the following conditions are met:

1. It is an Interstate Highway (USA) or other Limited Access Highway using the “Freeway” road type,
2. GPS tracks show a clearly definable and continuous gap (blank area) between the colour-by-azimuth arrows at the 100m/500ft zoom level,
3. multiple houses or businesses with no off-street parking are located directly on the street but are not accessible from the opposite direction of travel due to lengthy median, obstruction, or traffic control signage, or
4. U-turns are required to properly make turns from public drivable road types that are blocked by a median.

1. KSD does not meet 1.
2. The GPS tracks do not show a continuous gap at the 100m zoom level
3. I would need more information about where you are talking about to answer this one, but I think 1 to 5 below could cause issues.
4. Again, same as three.

A road should not be divided when:

1. There is a curb or non-drivable median less than 5m wide between lanes of travel (see exceptions above).
2. The non-drivable median is interrupted by a cross segment at most intersections.
3. There is a center turn lane (any width) between directions of travel. Dividing this type of road creates problems when people turn from the middle lane because there is no road for the navigation to follow.
4. It is possible and legal to make a driver side turn/u-turn everywhere along the road
5. The objective is solely for visual appearance or to make the road match another visual source like Google Maps.

1. KSD is quite often divided by a non drivable median less than 5 m wide. (but as it see exceptions above, so lets move on)
2. This is certainly the case. KSD has a lot of cross segments, u turn bays, T and four way intersections for cars to turn around.
3. KSD has centre turn lanes
4. KSD does not have driver side u turns ‘everywhere’ along the road, but there are a lot of them
5. I do not know your objective, but I hope I have answered a lot of the others.

Remember that dividing and un-dividing roads each comes with its own set of problems. Each situation is unique and some issues may be more manageable with a single two-way road, and some may work fine with a divided road. Consider every aspect of routing, and carefully examine each junction before dividing or un-dividing. Regardless of whether you’re dividing or un-dividing, remember that you might cause more problems than you solve and you might have to put it back the way it was before. Also remember that dividing and un-dividing each cause loss of some traffic data, which can result in poor Waze routing.

We have recently and still working through quite a few reports that are from u turns from divided roads, where a u turn was legal in one direction and not legal in the other, or not legal in both, or vice versa. The main issue was the divided road.

If the road was undivided, then the little u turn symbol could be clicked and the issue resolved. This is why I am so cautious when an editor wants to divide an undivided road. It brings so many complexities into the map that were not there before. And a lot of the time, it is eventually decided to undivide the road back again in a few months.

[theclem54]

There is only one benefit to dividing a road and that is to approach a business from the correct direction. Most of the time, it leads to other issues which Garvin mentioned above. The functionality to the end user is also reduced as nothing can be reported on the other side of the road (speed cameras, crashes, etc.).

Much easier (and cleaner on the map display) to leave it as a single two-way road.

Sometimes I wish we’d left our highways unsplit for the same reasons, as I find myself (as an end user more than an editor these days) unable to report speed cameras or crashes in the other direction.