My level: 2
Reason: Off Highway 17 (Patricia Bay Highway)…
To create left-turn (Northbound) and right-turn (Southbound) exits to Tanner Road.
To create right-turn (Northbound) exit to Gliddon Road.
Reduced from level 5 to 2 per your request.
Please reply back once your edits are done so I can lock back.
Thanks,
HM.
Done, thanks.
Here are two new permalinks for the segments which need to go [back] to Level 5 (too many for one link).
Permalink 1
Permalink 2
Before I locked them back to level 5 I have a coupe of questions:
- Why did you made those ramps so long? They should be as close as possible to the split, so people won’t get the turn announcement so much time prior.
- Is the middle lane turn to Tanner Rd necessary? When looking at Streetview it is seems an overkill for a left turn such as this.
Cheers,
HM.
Hi:
Thanks for checking. This type of change is new for me, and I appreciate your feedback/dialogue/education. I actually waited a few months before tackling this one… until I thought I was ready.
My goal was to set the maps to: (1) match reality; (2) guide the TTS to give better directions.
In the case of Tanner Road, the actual centre left-turn lane is indeed about 300m long*. I was also designing it to function the same as the Keating Cross-Road exit**, which is essentially identical in physical design. In both cases, vehicles will fill those left-turn ramps during heavy traffic times. Under the old config, the TTS would announce the Tanner Road turn too late if the lane was filling up, and barely in time for highway speeds if the lane was empty.
The Gliddon Road right-turn exit was similar (it’s an unusually long exit for such a low-volume road). As with the Keating & Tanner exits, my goal was to design the Gliddon exit to match reality, and have the TTS give good directions.
TIA, Doug
*: When looking at StreetView, I see the ramp starting where I’ve marked it. Are you seeing something different?
**: It’s the next exit north (about 1km) from Tanner Road.
Further thought / double-check of what I’ve gleaned from other examples and documentation:
I made the entrance ramp (for vehicles turns Southbound off Tanner onto HWY17) much shorter than reality. Thinking there was: (1) match what I understand best practice to be; (2) No need to tell drivers to wait until the end of the lane to merge (not that the TTS actually tells anyone to merge. But if it did… 
).
IOW: I’m looking at long ramps that run side-by-side with primary lanes from the principles that :
- the TTS should tell drivers to split (“keep left” or “keep right”) off the primary lane(s) as soon as the split is available.
- However, merging should be announced at the first opportunity to merge (not the that TTS actually announces merges… but if it did), not at the end of the merge lane.
Comments / Thoughts?
Hi hmarian:
First of all: TIA for your time and education! I realize this is a bit long :shock:, but it is a good learning opportunity.
Well, I’ve done a bunch more reading/rereading (a bit of it here and here correcting bad memory of what I thought I’d read). As well, I’ve had a chance to drive the routes and check out the written and TTS results.
Re the newly added 350m long left-turn “ramp” to Tanner Road. I wonder if it meets the criteria for an “At Grade Connector”. Also, even though it is a physically identical configuration to Keating XRd (1km north) the signage is not that of an “Exit”. In any case, the TTS is now behaving perfectly for this turn… stating “Keep Left to Tanner Road” a couple of seconds before the driver is to move into the lane.
Re the newly added ramp for the the right-turn from Tanner Road onto HWY 17 southbound. The TTS doesn’t announce the turn (of which the driver has no choice). I’m inclined to remove the ramp and make it a simple right turn in Waze.
Re the newly added 190m long ramp for the right-turn from HWY 17 southbound onto Tanner Road. If I’m reading things correctly, this should not be mapped per the documentation noted above. Waze now correctly tells the driver to “Exit Right” a couple of seconds before the start of the lane. I’d prefer it said “Stay Right” Shall this be removed and returned to a simple right turn in Waze? If the segment stays, should it be considered an “at grade connector” and changed to a “Primary Street” (Primary to match Tanner Road’s designation)?
Re the newly added 200+m ramp to Gliddon Road. Seems pretty clear this should be removed (per the documentation, as well as the fact that the exit sees relatively low volume. That said, it is behaving well in the TTS.
(not previously discussed or touched) Re the very short “Ramps” to/from Martindale Road. Should these be “At Grade Connectors” and converted to “Street”?
I think there is no point to argue if this should be a ramp or an at grad connection.
Since the road is classified as a highway I think the ramps are fine.
I just wanted to share my best practice, when it comes to ramps and turning lanes.
The following 3 ramps are way too long in my view. I think they should be as long as where the turn is cut with a slid line. Reason is that if the user misses the instruction for some reason, where he could still see the turn and it is legal to make the turn then why preventing him from doing it.
If you make the connection 200m before the actual turn it is very likely to be too early. I would put that as far as possible to let the Wazer the maximum time to make the turn.
There is always a dilemma on a highway off ramp for example where to connect the ramp:
- Where the exit ramp lane open
- In the middle
- At the very end (where it is still legal to turn)
I most always vote for number 3, but I do find that some people prefer 2. 1 is not very good in many people’s view.
I hope this will help.
Cheers,
HM.
Thanks for the feedback. I hope you don’t mind bouncing this around some more. For me, this is as much about learning the principles I will use in the future, as it is about this specific case.
I’ve shortened two of them to just under half of the length of the ramp. I also removed the ramp for the right turn from Tanner to Hwy 17 S.
Re the long left turn ramp (Hwy 17 N to Tanner Road). I’ve shortened it a bit, but (in keeping with this example at Keating, I left it for most of the length of the ramp.
My thinking is that this exit was, unlike most ramps/exits, built long to accommodate a build-up of waiting vehicles*. It’s probably true of practically every very long, side-by-side-with-the-through-lanes exit like this. In these cases, I’d lean strongly toward option 1. Your thoughts?
On the same vein, this little segment could/should be configured similarly.
*: In these specific cases, the exits at Tanner and, especially, Keating, will frequently fill up… sometimes to overflowing into the through lane. This is especially true when one of the larger ferries has unloaded 15 minutes earlier in Sidney. If the instruction to Stay Left doesn’t come until 1/2 way down the lane, then cars can be blocking the lane change, making it too late to make the turn.
You went to option number 2. I feel it is not necessary and provide better guidance if they will be shorter and start where the solid lines are.
If the satellite image is accurate I can make an edit based on it, to show you.
This exampleyou showed, is exactly what I like.
There is no reason to make it long to contain cars turning, as Waze know the difference for the same segment when making a turn and going straight. The time it takes should be different on Waze, it keep track of both and reflect that in the routing options. See this link to learn How Waze calculates routes.
Cheers,
HM.
Hi HM: Thanks for the quick reply. I’ll take a closer look at your example tomorrow.
It’s not the route itself that I’m thinking of… I think I have a pretty good handle on how Waze decides the overall route. The issue in this case is the text-to-speech instructions given to the driver. Under the old configuration, the TTS indication to the driver to either turn left or stay left came far too late.
Hi HM:
Snuck a peak at the example. I guess I have difficulty with that (not mapping the full exit lane), because the TTS instructions are then telling drivers what they are doing, not necessarily what they need to do :? . In the case of the East Saanich Road example, the final “Turn Left” instruction doesn’t serve any useful or safe purpose.
Here is a similar example --of an exit instruction that comes too late (I drive the route often). For Wazers waiting for to the TTS, we’ve just put them into a situation of making an unnecessary lane change (into an exit lane that get’s lots of pass-on-the-right speeders)… when they could have simply moved into the lane back where the exit started.
The more I think about this, the more I’m having a hard time with anything but option 1 (I say that while recognizing that I could very easily be missing something here). Isn’t the point of the TTS to tell drivers unfamiliar with the route what they need do to, and to guide them into doing it safely? To that end, don’t we want to give them all instructions, including the final “turn left” or “stay left”, before (or at least no later than the very start of) the exit?
As always, thanks for your time and thoughts!
PS re your question about imagery: Google’s satellite and StreetView imagery for the area is up-to-date. For high-resolution aerial imagery of the area, see here.
Hmmm… I’ve let this one get the better of my time for the day :roll: – looks like I’ll be working late make up the time (bad me 
)
I’m glad we came to the same conclusion.
Waze make announcement on the TTS before the turn and then at the turn, so if people rely just on voice guidance they are missing something.
Safety is always a top priority but if the user use both the visual and verbal instruction he should be fine with option 1.
I will leave it to you and the local editor in BC to work out on fixing what you feel is worth it.
Cheers,
HM.
Thanks, hmarian. I really appreciate your time and feedback.
I’ve asked DoctorKB / SkiDooGuy to offer direction as to the local editor side of things.
Hi,
I’ve looked read through this thread and just want to put my 2 cents in as well. By the looks of this, I believe Tannery road is set up correctly, and should have the lengthy ramp. Please bear in mind that it is illegal to cross solid lines in BC, so this lane should be entered before the solid line starts and the current decision point is correct. That’s not to say that people don’t cross solid lines, but it is illegal and instructions waze provides should always meet the legal requirements.
That said, I would agree with hmarian and I also REALLY hate really long ramps and at grade connectors in general and have been working to remove many as it simplifies the map and still keeps some responsibility with the driver to be paying attention and looking to position themselves correctly. Discussing these issues with docKB earlier, his advice was to make the decision point (where the segments connect) at the last legal location to make the move, i.e. where the solid line starts in this case. I recently made an exception to this with ski on Hwy 1 which is 5 lanes and if the true decision point was used and you were all the way on one side of the highway, there would be no way you could make it across.
On another issue, to tidy up segments in this area, please take some time to look at redundant junction nodes and redundant geo nodes. All of the extra ones should be removed.
Kayos
redundant nodes removed from those highway segments that are still at L2.
Map has been simplified as discussed. Thanks all for your feedback and education.
I think these segments can now be put back to their original Level 5 lock. Thx
I’ll also request that whomever replaces the lock consider changing this segment into a similarly configured exit lane under the same principles as has been discussed for the Keating and Tanner exits. I know from experience that, by the time TTS says “Turn Left”, it is obvious and redundant (not to mention illegal and unsafe if the driver is still in the through lane).
Over the course of this discussion, I’ve spent a lot of time refamiliarizing myself with related Wiki documents :shock:, including:
- Best Map Editing Practices
- Junction Style Guide
- At Grade Connectors
- Guide to Waze in Canada
There is no discussion regarding delaying the decision point as has been put forward in this thread [That said, I am a guy who sometimes can’t find his socks… sorry if I missed it]. I’ll suggest that one of the higher-ranked editors update the Best Practices guide with this information.
Thx & Regards, Doug
Thanks to whomever put the locks back in place.