Re: Belgium Rules

Map Editors Community Belgium
1

How to label and name roads
Freeways

  • Over het algemeen alle snelwegen. (A+E-wegen)
  • Toegang tot deze wegen gaat via op- en afritten.

Naamgeving:
Exx - Axx ||Exx{spatie}{streep}{spatie}Axx
Deze wegen krijgen geen plaatsnaam.

Major Highways

  • N-wegen van N1 tot en met N9. (Radiale wegen van Brussel naar de landsgrenzen)

  • N-wegen van N11 tot en met N99.
    Naamgeving:
    Nxx - Straatnaam ||Nxx{spatie}{streep}{spatie}Straatnaam
    Minor Highways

  • N-wegen van N100 tot en met N999.

  • B-wegen

Naamgeving:
Nxx - Straatnaam ||Nxx{spatie}{streep}{spatie}Straatnaam

Ramps

  • Toe- en afritten van snel- en hoofdwegen.
    Naamgeving:
    Bij afritten:
    Afrit xx Afritnaam || Afrit{spatie}xx{spatie}Afritnaam
    Bij opritten:
    Datgene wat op de borden staat.
    Voorbeeld: Axx ri Plaatsnaam / Plaatsnaam
    Primary Streets

  • Hoofdwegen en andere belangrijke wegen binnen en buiten de bebouwde kom.

Streets

  • Alle andere gewone straten.
    Pedestrian boardwalk

  • Fietspaden

  • Wandelpaden

  • Busbanen
    (LET OP! Direction moet zijn: ‘No entrace’ en Het vinkje voor ‘Locked’ moet zijn aangevinkt)

2

Ringwegen
Nog wat extra info over de ringwegen.
Ringwegen krijgen de volgende naam:
Rxx

Bij deze naam word dus geen A of E nummer toegevoegd aan de naam.

3

Here’s some information on how to label roads (in Dutch, but includes Belgian roads as well):

http://www.waze.com/wiki/index.php/How_to_label_and_name_roads_(Netherlands)

4

Thanks for posting the link. This is a good way to start for Belgium.

However, we need to take into account our French speaking citizens also and they may look to the France site for rules as well. This may result in different rule sets.
Splitting by language make no sense IMO since the traffic infrastructure is quite consistent over Belgium, yet can be different to the Netherlands and France. This would also be a problem around the language border and in Brussels.
Either we create one consistent rule set for Belgium (also taking into account the different languages) or we have 3 separate areas that create their own rules: Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels.

I think one rule set for Belgium makes the most sense (but that’s my opinion). Any other thoughts, anyone?
First things first: who wants to help out creating a wiki for setting rules for Belgium area?
(Anyone joining the discussion: let’s continue how to set up the Belgium wiki on the ‘Belgium Forum Wanted’ topic first, not this sticky topic.)

5

Hello

I’m writing this in english so the dutch and french speaking wazers can understand what i’m trying to say :slight_smile: (my french is not so great)

I would like to unite all belgian wazer to specify the general rules and naming conventions for towns and cities.

I would like to suggest to use the names of towns and cities exactly as the Belgian Post defines them.
list: http://www.bpost.be/site/nl/docs/zipcodes/zipcode_alpha.html

Also, when a town or city is written in french, to enter it in french and not translate the name (see list: e.g. the city “Namur” is written in french, not the dutch version “Namen”)

This list provided by Bpost also clarifies the location of towns with the same name (e.g. Berchem (Antwerpen) and Berchem (O.-Vl.)

For further distinction and clarification the postal code can be added (via the townname or via an extra field provided by waze). The solution here could be (in the case waze doesn’t provide an extra field for postal codes) to enter the townname as follows:

PCODE TOWN (NEAR CITY - if given) || PCODE space TOWN space (NEAR CITY - if given)

Although the option of adding the postal code isn’t obligatory today, i think it might be good to consider it…

In general, i think it’s a better idea to enter the specific town name. Because there currently aren’t specific rules for naming streets, towns and cities and everybody has his own idea how they should be named, we really should define general rules…

Thank you for reading and considering my idea…

6

I indeed Didn’t have time yet to translate it.
I will try to make some translations coming week.

If you also have some things translated, you can PM me, so I can add it to the first post.

7

1043 VRT VRT 1043 VRT
1818 VTM VTM 1818 VTM

Nice postal codes :D.

8

If you think that is a good idea, think again. Or look at Ludwigsburg, Germany for an example of why this is NOT a good idea.

9

that’s why i said

Ok, you have a point.

But what about my general idea of using the town and city naming as noted by Bpost? So when entering the names of small towns actually using that name instead of the general town name (int nederlands: straten in deelgemeentes de naam van de deelgemeente meegeven en niet die van de overkoepelende fusiegemeente)?

10

Just made a translation of the Netherland’s rules page. The content of the translation has been done automatically with google translate : I’m not good enough to translate dutch into english… I’ve fixed the tables and titles so that they look the same as the Netherland’s version of the page.

Now, we just have to edit this page with the following :

  1. Make translation better
  2. Change obvious netherland’s references to belgium’s references (thinking about the “examples”, for instance)
  3. Of course (this will probably be the most difficult) agree on which rules should differ in Belgium from the Netherlands

Apart for cases 1) & 2), try not to edit the page unless we agree on a general consensus on this forum OR on the discussion page (maybe a better place to have this discussion, actually).

11

The url of the page made by yoho:

http://www.waze.com/wiki/index.php/How_to_label_and_name_roads_(Belgium)

12

Thanks, forgot the link…

13

Thanks, yoho, for making the ‘rules’ page.

nimda, i think this is a very good idea of using (the first column of) this list (but let’s not enter post codes). That way there is a consistent naming list. On map sites like google maps or via michelin the name of the small towns (deelgemeente) are visible on the map also. Places that have the same name are distinguished in one consistent way in the list (e.g. Berchem (Antwerpen) / Berchem (O.-Vl.), Aalst / Aalst (Limb.)).
Also it is clear what local names not to use. E.g. ‘Donk’ is a valid ‘deelgemeente’ for ‘Herk-de-Stad’, it is in the list. If you enter ‘Donk’ in google maps that’s where you end up. But there are a few very small areas that have the name ‘Donk’ as well. In Zonhoven, Mol, Berlare. In google maps entering ‘donk mol’ you can find it. But this area does not seem to be an official ‘deelgemeente’ (any more). It is not in the Bpost list, there is only one Donk. So those areas should not be named with the local unofficial name, but with the offical post area name (‘Mol’). If someone searches for a street there, he will probably enter ‘Mol’ as the town anyway and not even know there is a couple of acres having a local name. Using the Bpost list unambiguously answers the question when to use a local small area name and when not. I propose to use the names exactly as in that list (and not add the ‘fusiegemeente’ between parentheses). Anyone see any downsides of using this list?

And i agree the names should be in the language of the area (Flanders, Walonia). Also this is clear in that list. That just leaves Brussels where there are names in both languages. What to do there?

14

hi teknoir

thank you for your extensive reply and you posted a good question about naming Brussels…

I think the only way to do it right is if waze provides us with a way to enter townnames in different languages, and if you can select your language preference in the waze app it uses the preferred translated townname (and otherwise the only name that exists). But as far as i know these options do not exist today, so i don’t have an idea how we can resolve this now…

15

There used to be ‘alternate names’ for cIties and streets before the new editor. They probably still exist, but are not displayed or can be edited with the new map editor. Maybe it’s a feature they will bring back.

However, you’re right in saying we should be able to tell the language of these fields, which was not the case in the previous editor.

16

I found the following document on http://www.wegeninfo.be which is a website of the Belgian Federal Police.
This document could be used as a reference for naming the Belgian roads.

Philip

Waze 3.0.1.0 - Samsung Galaxy S (2.3.3)

17

I do totally not agree with the hierarchy of types of road that has been chosen:

  • N1-N99 major roads
  • N100-N999 minor roads

To my opinion, the structure used there doesn’t give back the reality of the current road’s hierarchy.

In Brussels, some roads, like N2, are very small near the center, whereas some other roads, like between “bois de la cambre” and Place Louise are not even a minor road following the proposed policy. In Brabant-Wallon, N25 is nearly a real freeway on most of its length, and you can’t compare it to N5 in the centre of Waterloo, where you are allwoed to drive max 50km/h, a speed that you can only do at night, when the shops are closed.

I would really prefer a more subjective, which can give more problems, way of classifying roads, like France is applying:

http://www.waze.com/wiki/index.php/Comment_nommer_les_routes_et_les_villes#Types_de_routes_en_et_hors_agglom.C3.A9ration

They are classifying roads in function of the type of road, the capacity to handle lot of traffic, the speed that can be done,etc.

When looking at the hierarchy of openstreetmaps.org, which is quiet richer that what we can do here, they also classify things in function of the road’s properties, and not in function of an old classification which was made more than 100 years ago, and wasn’t modernized.

The method proposed by maantje76 and petervdveen are not realistic at all for the current usage of the road network: it is a good solution for people not knowing the places they classify, but it doesn’t reflect the reality.

I know yoho made a post saying same thing as here, so that I’m not the only one thinking like that.

Before doing a lot of work, could we do a poll to let people vote for the way they think it should be done?

p.s.: I must add that I thank maantje76 en petervdveen for all the work they do on our country: naming conventions of the roads, the cities, taking lot of initiative: [b]it’s really appreciated[/b], but I’m not sure they do know our country as we do, especially the secondary road’s network.

18

Hello TefoTef. Thanks for contributing to this forum.
If you mean to change the waze road type along the road depending on number of lanes, speed limit, speed bumps, etc, than i strongly disagree.
We first have to look at the question what the purpose of the road types are. IMHO, it is not to mark the physical road properties (width, lanes, speed limit) at every place (leading up to an estimation of the “capacity” of the road). Rather to mark the importance of the road in connecting two or multiple cities. Yes, it’s true that many national roads in Belgium change frequently into a local situation that resembles a simple street. That’s because of decades of lack of geographic planning and strategy, resulting in major connecting roads running through city centers and alongside schools. In some countries (USA to start) the physical properties of the road better coincide with the importance of the road.
When zooming out in the map, the less important roads hide. If a road has different types along its route, than there would be gaps in the road if you zoom out. In a zoomed-out map, the major connections between cities should be clear, no matter the capacity of the road locally.
You give a good example yourself. The N5 changes in the center of Waterloo to something that you thinks would not be a major highway. Yet on openstreetmaps.org the type does not change there, as it is the main connection between Brussels and Charleroi.
So a road should keep the same type between the two major places it connects.

If you mean however that the decision between major and minor highway should not be based on the N1-99 / N100-N999 rule, there is some room for discussion. Although i like this objective way of distinction. A subjective interpretation can lead to inconsistencies. I understand your reasoning up to a point. Take for example the N702 connecting Hasselt and Genk. According to the rule it is a minor highway. In reality it is a 2 by 2 lane fast expressway that connect these cities. The N2 by comparison between Hasselt and Diepenbeek is a slow and less important road. Yet it is a ‘major highway’ and is more important because it connects multiple cities from Brussels to Maastricht.
That way the rule is ok in determining the most important roads in the sense that the N1-99 roads were once the main arteries that connect multiple cities, even if in reality it many times is a collection of separate roads strung together.

You can propose another way of distinction, but the French system seems very complex and some criteria are dependent on the local situation. And the local situation in Belgium changes every 500m :). Maybe roads are more consistent in France.

19

Good explanation teknoir.

À few extra words.

  • Forget the part ‘highway’ in minor or mayor road type.

  • For every rule, there is an exception. But basic rules are very important. There is always place for discussion about specific situations.
    Most important is to get al ‘main’ roads on the map as soon as possible. I think 95% of those roads aren’t done right now. À big part aren’t even navigatable.

  • Keep in mind Waze uses average segment speeds, so road type is not the most important thing.

Thanks for your compliment TefoTef :slight_smile:

Just à small keynote, à poll on the Belgium forum is not so interesting I think. Your the 3rd or 4th Belgium person posting on the forum in the last couple of weeks. :frowning:

As said earlier in my post. Let’s try to map al main roads in Belgium as fast as we can, according to this rules. As soon we’re done with that, Waze is getting an interesting navigation solution. Ofcourse there’s lots of more work to do, but start with the basics.

Some inside information. I’m discussing with Waze marketing to use à system message in the client, to recruit some new potentional editors. As soon the Belgium community is à little bigger, with a few regular editors (Belgium die-hards :wink: ), we can try to organise à Belgium meeting with some participants from Waze. But we’ll see that by that time…

20

I quote the Netherlands rules wiki page :

Is it true ? If it is you must also consider relative (expected) speed between the roads before determining their types. I take once again my example : tunnels in brussels city are meant to be a shorcut compared to side roads (beliard tunnel, for instance).

If the statement is not true, then please remove it both from nl and be wiki pages…