What to do when there is no Posted Speed Limit

Map Editors Community United States Pennsylvania
1

Now that we are entering speed limits into waze i brought up the question “what is the speed limit in PA if there are no posted signs?”
there is Statutory guidelines in PA on what speed limits “should” be but no clear definitions. using the information below what would be the best option for filling in the speed limit?
here are the 3 options i can think of but by no means are these the only 3 options on how to handle this

  1. fill in 55 as that is technically the only enforceable speed
  2. fill in the statutory speed limit as traveling above that speed puts you at the greatest risk of accident/ getting pulled over
  3. leave it blank and let waze fill it in but dont as editors verify the speed

Ҥ 3362. Maximum speed limits.
(a) General rule.–Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with section 3361 (relating to driving vehicle at safe speed), the limits specified in this section or established under this subchapter shall be maximum lawful speeds and no person shall drive a vehicle at a speed in excess of the following maximum limits:
(1) 35 miles per hour in any urban district.
(1.1) 65 miles per hour or 70 miles per hour for all vehicles on freeways where the department has posted a 65-miles-per-hour or 70-miles-per-hour speed limit.
(1.2) 25 miles per hour in a residence district if the highway:
(i) is not a numbered traffic route; and
(ii) is functionally classified by the department as a local highway.
(2) 55 miles per hour in other locations.
(3) Any other maximum speed limit established under this subchapter.
(b) Posting of speed limit.–
(1) No maximum speed limit established under subsection (a)(1), (1.2) or (3) shall be effective unless posted on fixed or variable official traffic-control devices erected in accordance with regulations adopted by the department which regulations shall require posting at the beginning and end of each speed zone and at intervals not greater than one-half mile.
(2) No maximum speed limit established under subsection (a)(1.1) shall be effective unless posted on fixed or variable official traffic-control devices erected after each interchange on the portion of highway on which the speed limit is in effect and wherever else the department shall determine.”
-Copied from PADOT Title 75 on 2/10/16

"Speed Limit Signing
Field investigations of citizen complaints of speeding on residential streets often reveal that very few, if
any, speed limit signs are in-place. Although statutory speed limits exist for 25, 35, 55, and 65 mph,
only a 55 mph speed limit is enforceable without the posting of speed limit signs. For this reason,
residential streets must include speed limit signing if a speed limit other than 55 mph is to be enforceable.
The Pennsylvania Vehicle Code (Title 75), §3362 indicates that speed limit signing must be in accordance
with Department regulations to include “…posting at the beginning and end of each speed zone and at
intervals not greater than one-half mile”. In addition, the installation of speed limit signing will function as
a constant reminder of the roadway’s speed limit. "
-Copied from PA Traffic Calming Handbook PDF page 80 (labeled page 75 in print) on 2/10/16. book published 7/2012

2

Knowledge of the area is going to play a factor here, otherwise it is essentially based upon the functional class.

I believe you have it copied above but this is what should be followed on roads without speed limit signs.
Title 75 - VEHICLES
Chapter 33 - Rules of the Road in General
3362 - Maximum speed limits.

This can be used in a generalized sense to help with understanding Areas/Roads
http://www.speed-limits.com/pennsylvania.htm

Otherwise, some definitions.

“Urban district.” The territory contiguous to and including any street which is built up with structures devoted to business, industry or dwelling houses situated at intervals of less than 100 feet for a distance of a quarter of a mile or more.

“Freeway.” A limited access highway to which the only means of ingress and egress is by interchange ramps.

“Residence district.” The territory contiguous to and including a highway not comprising a business district when the property on the highway for a distance of 300 feet or more is in the main improved with residences or residences and buildings in use for business.

“Numbered traffic route.” A highway which has been assigned an interstate, United States or Pennsylvania route number, consisting of three or fewer digits, to aid motorists in their travels.

“Functionally-local highways.” Highways and roads designated by the department for transfer to municipal responsibility.

“Municipality.” A county, city, borough, incorporated town or township.

This chapter applies to all State highways designated by the department as functionally-local highways.

§ 9203. Description of functionally-local highways.

Within six months of the effective date of this chapter, the department shall list and describe all functionally-local highways in this Commonwealth. Also, within six months of the effective date of this chapter and annually thereafter, the department shall list the proposed functionally-local highways to be transferred, giving priority to highways located in counties in which State highways are in the poorest condition, as indicated in the road quality reports prepared in accordance with Chapter 453 of department regulations. The list and description shall be categorized by municipality and shall include a map showing location, length and type of roadway and right-of-way.

3

I think we’re all going to have to give our licenses back. It’s hard enough to remember where I left my car keys.

4

yes this is the same as what i copied but it also stated that with no signs that they are not enforceable. therefore if they are not enforceable why warn of them?

5

Because any wazer who has bothered to turn on the speeding alerts will appreciate not winding up in traffic court.

6

Also,
"If the new speed limit begins at an intersection, the first sign should be installed within 200 feet beyond the intersection. "

So if we see a speed limit sign 200 feet from an intersection or less, we can assume the speed limit change began at the intersection — BEFORE you get to the sign, you are already subject to the new speed limit.

Title 67
212.108 (e)

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter212/s212.108.html

2/12/2016

7

It should be noted though, I don’t have the exact section to share at the moment, but for speed limits increases, they do not officially begin until you’ve reached/passed the sign. Otherwise, If the speed limit decreases you have 500ft after the sign to decrease your speed to the new limit.

We had a fatal accident one time at an intersection where just after the intersection the speed limit increased. The guy was on a motorcycle going approximately 55 in a 35 where the speed limit after the intersection became 45, the state police Reconstruction team deemed The man on the motorcycle at fault. The family of the man on the motorcycle argued he was speeding up due to the upcoming increase in the speed limit but ultimately was deemed at fault because the speed limit did not officially begin until he reached/past the new sign. I’m not sure of the distance between the intersection and the new sign and if it is more than 200 feet but I don’t necessarily think this needs to be an 100% exact either. Obviously we want this to be as accurate as possible but instead of creating extra nodes on every road I think our goal should be to be accurate within 300 feet or less. Thoughts?

309 SB towards 81 ramp https://goo.gl/maps/wWW6fP3QYV12

8

In a case where the sign is 200’ or less after the intersection, I think it makes sense to start the new zone at the intersection.

There is an inconsistency, though, if the court ruled that the driuver should not have exceeded 35 until he passed the new sign. 55, of course, is a violation no matter where in the two zones he was located.

9

I have no objection to having it start at the intersection.

10

As for the original question, I think the statuatory limits make sense in the absence of a sign.
I assume a driver might be ticketed for driving at an unsafe speed. They might win in court, but they probably want to know what the speed is “supposed” to be so they can avoid the trip to court.

As above, for unposted roads:

(1) 35 miles per hour in any urban district.
(1.2) 25 miles per hour in a residence district if the highway:
(i) is not a numbered traffic route; and
(ii) is functionally classified by the department as a local highway.
(2) 55 miles per hour in other locations.

Other speed limits only happen where posted, as stated in the rest of the subchapter.

If we can tell the difference between residential, business district, and out of town, then it should be pretty simple to figure out. We still need to look for posted signs. There are a lot of out-of-town segments with signs few and far between with 45mph and 35 mph speed limits.

https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lon=-75.63052&lat=39.91676&zoom=10&segments=41604036

https://www.waze.com/editor/?env=usa&lon=-75.62311&lat=39.90801&zoom=8&segments=41601988

Not that most drivers on that road care. But at least they can get a warning to go slow enough to stay on their own side of the road as they approach that blind curve… :slight_smile:

11

makes perfect sense to me

12

typically these roads seem to be small overlooked township roads anyway

13

I think we should strive to make as many speed changes at junctions as possible. Just to keep the number of new junctions to a minimum. Every junction is a potential problem.

14

Another thing. In PA, the speed limit is supposed to be the same going both directions on a 2-way road. If you find yourself in an asymmetric situation, look askance at the data.

15

That’s a good point. It’s one of those things that we just assume, but which might not be obvious to those from other areas.

16

Bear in mind, we’re not really here to take the place of signage. If there’s a sign in front of my face, and Waze is out of sync with the sign by a few hundred feet, the driver is just being careless if he ignores the sign and relies on Waze. For increases, it matters 0%, because at worse, Waze will nanny you for two seconds extra, big deal. So you thought you had to stay slow for two extra seconds?

For decreases, even though Waze fails to nanny you a few seconds when it should, that sign should be giving you the warning.

So I’m ultra-meh on worrying about the fact that we’re pinning the increases and decreases to existing junctions instead of wherever they start.

17

Agreed.

18

Two things for discussion, as it is now we do not add speed limits to exit ramps, because they are simply a suggestion, however do we really want to go as far as saying “no, we will not allow them to be added at all” granted I don’t want to see someone taking time from adding enforceable speed limits but I don’t think adding them would necessarily do any harm either, especially at major interchange Ramps like I-80 to I-81. Anyways, point being, I agree they don’t “have” to be added but I don’t want to see someone getting scolded either for adding them. When waze gets support for routing by vehicle type, these speed limits could benefit tractor trailers.

Second talking point, toll booths. Until Waze adds a ezpass road attribute, how do we want to map toll booths with both ezpass “at speed” toll booths but also have stop and pay booths. The at speed ezpass lanes are typically 45-65mph, stop and pay booths range 5-15mph. Many toll booths aren’t split so do we want to add the stop and pay limit or the at speed limit?

19

I can’t see scolding anyone for adding some reasonable speed to ramps.
During this upcoming SL mapraid, I think we should make freeway segment speeds a higher priority than ramp segment advisory speeds.

We can map these different lanes, but since we have no way to properly direct wazers to high-speed EZPass, slow speed EZPass, and ticket/pay booths, I can’t see it as a high priority. We can’t even assure that waze will snap wazers to the correct lane once they choose one. So we wouldn’t want to add SLs to these lanes anyway – imagine you are in the high-speed lane, travelling below the speed limit, and get an alert for exceeding the 5mph speed limit because you are snapped to the cash lane.

20

Isn’t PA going to all ezpass and mail in shortly, or is that only on certain roads? If we are this eventually won’t be an issue

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