Parking lot rd reminder

[nidnarb]

Just a reminder to all you active WA editors.

Mobile home trailer parks, all camp grounds(dont map dirt road), apartment complexes, condo complexes, schools, all parks, public businesses and shopping centers should be mapped as parking lot rds.

We only use private roads for private driveway access, gates and non public areas to restrict routing through them.

Also as i’m on the subject of roads. Please dont map old logging roads(99% of them are gated) or any DNR gated forest roads(pretty much all are gated). They aren’t used by public at all. If you are unsure check out the DNR map of WA which shows all the gated roads. We specifically only need dirt roads for access to what a normal car cannot drive on hence 4x4 dirt roads. Ive actually only had to use a couple for national forest roads on a couple branches.

I’ve had to go through and change a ton of misused road types especially apartment complexes.

If you aren’t sure ask dude463 or me.

Thanks!

[SeveriorumPatrem]

I get the distinct impression that this forum post was directed mostly at me. :oops:

I have been using PRs for residential parking lot roads for a while. I’ve got no problem not doing that any more…I don’t make the rules. I just didn’t think it mattered much either way, as the routing penalty (as far as I know) is the same as for PLRs, and it helped visually distinguish residential from commercial areas when editing. I believe it makes no difference which type is used for routing purposes, correct? But anyway, noted, no more using PRs for apartments and mobile parks, etc. Got it.

As far as logging roads go, I have definitely been adding them as I review rural areas. I have a specific reason for this, and would like to present my case for consideration. As a longtime county firefighter and wildland firefighter, for years and years, we have struggled when we get vague directions to a fire or other emergency in open land areas, and when we eventually sight the smoke at some distance, we have pretty worthless map books from the DNR to figure out how to get from wherever we are to where the fire actually is. Also, with no signage, we often are unable to articulate which road we are on or where we want to get to via radio.

Now, with Waze, it is possible for us to be on the app (before we lose network coverage) and it still snaps us to a road, conveniently telling us the name of the road we are on or near to (if they are named) and when we see somewhere we want to be in the distance, we can scroll around on the app and figure out how to get there. It is pretty amazing, actually, using this in areas I’ve completed the work. The fire guys I’ve told about this, both in my agency and others we work with, are loving this capability. It is a game changer, and word is spreading around Clark and Skamania counties. Frankly, this is one of the reasons I even became an editor in the first place.

I disagree with the claim the 99% of the old roads are gated, or that people don’t use them. Many of them are, but in my experience down here in Clark/Skamania, most of them are not. I use them occasionally myself, as do many of my friends who go up there for shooting or “wheeling”. I also frequently check the GPS points layer in areas I’m working, and I can see people using the major DNR routes before they go out of cell coverage. In any case, by using Dirt/4x4 type, no one should ever be routed on them unless they are already on them.

Lastly, I see value in mapping logging roads so that people who may happen to get lost up there, even on a Dirt/4x4 spur, will be able to find their way out with Waze. In fact, this point is mentioned in the Waze Wiki for Forest Service Roads. I read this page prior to starting mapping logging and forestry roads, and really feel like my work has not violated anything on that page.

https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Forest_Service_Roads

Waze and Forest Service Roads
Creating accurate and properly represented USFS roads in Waze will:

• benefit large numbers of tourists and recreational users of USFS roads,
• allow those lost in some areas to navigate to regular roadways,
• allow local populations appropriate use of USFS roads,
• allow Waze editors to functionally classify roads by marking them with the appropriate Waze road type (street, 4x4, etc.),
• allow some roads to be marked as private to the USFS,
• allow identification of useful Waze Places on USFS land,
• allow time-based restrictions on some roads that are closed in winter.

OK, that’s my case for your consideration. That all said, I am still a noob, and will abide by the ruling of those in charge. Please share your thoughts, as I already know I will be learning a few things from this thread.

Thanks for listening, sorry for the long read.

[nidnarb]

@SeveriorumPatrem

I get the distinct impression that this forum post was directed mostly at me. :oops:

This post wasnt directed at you, just a friendly reminder. That’s all.

@SeveriorumPatrem

I have been using PRs for residential parking lot roads for a while. I’ve got no problem not doing that any more…I don’t make the rules. I just didn’t think it mattered much either way, as the routing penalty (as far as I know) is the same as for PLRs, and it helped visually distinguish residential from commercial areas when editing. I believe it makes no difference which type is used for routing purposes, correct? But anyway, noted, no more using PRs for apartments and mobile parks, etc. Got it.

The only reason i say this is private roads = highest penalty. It does make a huge difference. Could be the difference of being routed to a side street instead of the location creating a unneeded UR. That’s why these things are stated in the wiki for all of us to follow. Harmonization is what we strive for in map editing.

@SeveriorumPatrem

As far as logging roads go, I have definitely been adding them as I review rural areas. I have a specific reason for this, and would like to present my case for consideration. As a longtime county firefighter and wildland firefighter, for years and years, we have struggled when we get vague directions to a fire or other emergency in open land areas, and when we eventually sight the smoke at some distance, we have pretty worthless map books from the DNR to figure out how to get from wherever we are to where the fire actually is. Also, with no signage, we often are unable to articulate which road we are on or where we want to get to via radio.

Now, with Waze, it is possible for us to be on the app (before we lose network coverage) and it still snaps us to a road, conveniently telling us the name of the road we are on or near to (if they are named) and when we see somewhere we want to be in the distance, we can scroll around on the app and figure out how to get there. It is pretty amazing, actually, using this in areas I’ve completed the work. The fire guys I’ve told about this, both in my agency and others we work with, are loving this capability. It is a game changer, and word is spreading around Clark and Skamania counties. Frankly, this is one of the reasons I even became an editor in the first place.

I disagree with the claim the 99% of the old roads are gated, or that people don’t use them. Many of them are, but in my experience down here in Clark/Skamania, most of them are not. I use them occasionally myself, as do many of my friends who go up there for shooting or “wheeling”. I also frequently check the GPS points layer in areas I’m working, and I can see people using the major DNR routes before they go out of cell coverage. In any case, by using Dirt/4x4 type, no one should ever be routed on them unless they are already on them.

Lastly, I see value in mapping logging roads so that people who may happen to get lost up there, even on a Dirt/4x4 spur, will be able to find their way out with Waze. In fact, this point is mentioned in the Waze Wiki for Forest Service Roads. I read this page prior to starting mapping logging and forestry roads, and really feel like my work has not violated anything on that page.

https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Forest_Service_Roads

Waze and Forest Service Roads
Creating accurate and properly represented USFS roads in Waze will:

• benefit large numbers of tourists and recreational users of USFS roads,
• allow those lost in some areas to navigate to regular roadways,
• allow local populations appropriate use of USFS roads,
• allow Waze editors to functionally classify roads by marking them with the appropriate Waze road type (street, 4x4, etc.),
• allow some roads to be marked as private to the USFS,
• allow identification of useful Waze Places on USFS land,
• allow time-based restrictions on some roads that are closed in winter.

OK, that’s my case for your consideration. That all said, I am still a noob, and will abide by the ruling of those in charge. Please share your thoughts, as I already know I will be learning a few things from this thread.

Thanks for listening, sorry for the long read.

I think you read my post wrong about forest roads and dirt roads. Two separate things here. We want forest service, national park, dnr public roads mapped. We just need to use the right classification. If you look at the wiki on forest roads which you quoted. We classify most of them as street and main spurs as primary street, only in certain circumstances we label roads as dirt road. Most people have dirt roads disabled in app.

I havent seen what you mapped but looking at this chart here https://wiki.waze.com/wiki/Forest_Service_Roads#Maintenance_Levels_.26_GIS_Data
As you see on the bottom pictures those roads should not be mapped regardless. Level 3 =
Street looks like 99% of the roads we have around here. I rarely see level 4(i sure wouldn’t drive that in my car)

Hopefully this clears up confusion.

[SeveriorumPatrem]

Thank you! All good stuff.

For the Gifford Pinchot so far, I’ve been mapping all primary USFS roads (two-digit) as Streets.

There are two subcategories for the primary road spurs as cutoffs, four-digit and seven-digit roads.

Examples…
FS-42 - main route
FS-4230 - cutoff or major spur from FS-42
FS-4230515 - minor spur and/or local access from FS-4230

The level of maintenance is sort of hit and miss on the four and seven digit roads, so I have been using dirt roads for both types. Idea being, if you more or less know where you are going, or are navigating to something specific, you’ll get routed over whatever is necessary when you get close, so no harm there. And if you get lost, Hopefully you’ll be routed back to one of the actual primary two-digit roads sooner rather than later. Also, I have been adding dirt roads for obvious but marginally drivable roads, also using dirt road type, that people would still go four-wheeling on or that we would be willing to drive a brush/rescue 4x4 down, as part of our scouting and access stuff I talked about before.

As I get feedback from people I know who are up there more often than I am (and are starting to use Waze up there since I told them about it), I can continue to do some tweaks to fine tune.

[nidnarb]

@SeveriorumPatrem

Thank you! All good stuff.

For the Gifford Pinchot so far, I’ve been mapping all primary USFS roads (two-digit) as Streets.

There are two subcategories for the primary road spurs as cutoffs, four-digit and seven-digit roads.

Examples…
FS-42 - main route
FS-4230 - cutoff or major spur from FS-42
FS-4230515 - minor spur and/or local access from FS-4230

The level of maintenance is sort of hit and miss on the four and seven digit roads, so I have been using dirt roads for both types. Idea being, if you more or less know where you are going, or are navigating to something specific, you’ll get routed over whatever is necessary when you get close, so no harm there. And if you get lost, Hopefully you’ll be routed back to one of the actual primary two-digit roads sooner rather than later. Also, I have been adding dirt roads for obvious but marginally drivable roads, also using dirt road type, that people would still go four-wheeling on or that we would be willing to drive a brush/rescue 4x4 down, as part of our scouting and access stuff I talked about before.

As I get feedback from people I know who are up there more often than I am (and are starting to use Waze up there since I told them about it), I can continue to do some tweaks to fine tune.

Pretty sure that’s what we have going up north and peninsula. As for dirt roads roads that people 4 wheel on or motorbike that wouldn’t drive on even 4x4 we dont map those. Waze is for cars and cars only. There are separate apps for that stuff. As for getting to the parking lot for where your riding, if its a lvl 3 rd then it should be street or if its club only access then it should be private.

Even if there’s no service as long as people are routed to whatever trailhead parking lot there going then we are doing something right.