Since the speed limit report feature was rolled out on the app, we have gotten a TON of speed limit URs. Some of them have pointed to two areas where the current wiki guidance is ambiguous. I am requesting that the NJ State Managers and Regional Coordinators offer definitive guidance on these questions.
Should we put speed limits on ramps? We are getting many reports on ramps without SL, especially in the GWB area and the Turnpike rest areas.
The wiki states that private installations are not normally marked with speed limits, but may be at local discretion. Some such situations are:
a) Apartment complex or shopping center with white, regulatory-appearing signs.
b) Apartment complex or shopping center with non-standard sign (usually looks like the other signs)
c) Private installation (usually apartment complex or shopping center) with speed limits established in the municipal code.
d) Private installation (esp. residential) with no speed limit sign - do we assign 25?
The standard that I used for Mercer and Middlesex was to use posted speed limit wherever I found it (including B above) and to use 25mph on any named or Street or above roads. For trailer parks I used a posted limit if I could find it and we downgraded any Street to PLR per the wiki.
SM/RC - what is the official NJ guidance? We’re getting a bunch of URs in these situations.
I believe the instructions from Private Installations came during the time where we couldn’t apply Speed Limits to PLR’s/PR’s, but now we can, I have no problem with actually mapping them by either prima facie or declared speed limit laws.
So, I don’t mean this as a ruling, and we should definitely hear some inputs, both from the regulars, as well as the newer editors, but here are my $0.02:
In my mind, generally speaking, we should consider things for what they are. So some of the questions I would ask are:
Are ramp advisory speeds actually speed limits?
Are privately declared speed limits on privately posted signs on private properties actually speed limits?
What do SMs in other nearby states think; do we think it’s worth elevating this question to the regional or national level?
(How) Is New Jersey different enough with regards to this situation to warrant special treatment?
I’m not sure these questions have a clear answer, and the only way we can really develop consensus is by collecting as many editor opinions on this as possible.
As for my opinion, I would rather leave the SL blank to indicate a “we don’t know situation” than guess, wherever an official speed limit is not evident. That being said, has anyone responded back to these SL UR’s explaining our position and maybe asking why they felt that ramp advisories should be included with speed limits? If so, has anyone seen responses converging toward any big reasons? Or, is this just about seeing a lot of URs in general? Remember, if it’s just about high volume, that can be solved with a custom URC comment (or maybe even a built-in one if you’re really nice to the URC team ). Also, maybe if a ramp, for example, is large enough to have an actual “native” speed limit - like with a white sign - we should be asking ourselves whether those segments should be ramps or an appropriate highway type instead, right?
I don’t feel yellow advisory signs are actual speed limits. I’d rather not get a ‘ding’ from my phone while driving unless I’m eligible for a ticket, and I’m pretty sure those advisory signs are not enforceable per-se.
I do, however, feel private property speed limit signs should be reflected in Waze. Even if the local PD can’t enforce the speeds they are there for a reason - the local community there wouldn’t like you speeding thru. One apt complex I lived in would try to tack a fee onto your rent if you were caught speeding in the complex. Or so the rumor went.
I don’t understand how this argument would be different than the argument of including the advisory signs on ramps and such. Those were obviously posted for a reason as well.
With that said, I don’t want waze dinging at me constantly, so the parameters around where we apply SLs feels necessary. White and black signs on private roads, whether enforceable or not, come with an expectation of the average wazer that they are indeed enforceable, and will appear as an omission on our end if they are not included, rather than a nod to our deep understanding of the law. My vote is that if it looks like a standard black and white sign, we add it.
By law, ramp advisories (yellow sign) are not enforceable as speed limits (they may be enforceable as careless/reckless driving).
Private developments fall into three categories:
Agreement with the township and laws in the municipal code. (typically large developments or malls)
No agreement with the township, regulatory style signs.
No signs, or non-regulatory style signs.
#1 is enforceable but rare, and should be treated like public streets IMO. #2 is fairly common. The police probably won’t ticket people. But the driver probably thinks it’s a law. So I recommend putting in the SL. #3 is also fairly common. I believe we’ll get lots of URs and recommend putting in the default speed (25) or the posted speed in whatever form. But I know that this is the point of contention.
I often see signs entering a town “village speed limit 30” (or 25, etc). Most streets are not signed - and not all entry points to a village are signed either. Unless posted otherwise, I’ve been using the default SL for the town / village.
So in my brevity to respond in the original discussion on GHO, I was not following committing my full attention. After reading the USA Guidelines on SL wiki, there’s 2 points sticking out to me. I’ve switched to alphabet ordering to avoid confusion with mrsmith’s points above:
When reviewing against mrsmith’s points, #1 and #2 seem logical and would meet a users expectations of expecting to see a SL in the app since they either use approved municipal, county, state ordinances or approved regulatory signs.
As for #3, I’m of the opinion of not including these SLs since they do not use approved signage or included within an ordinance. The wiki is clear as to what to include and we can always refer to it if there are potential questions or pushback from UR responses.
If we were to consider #3, this should involve the region since we’ve been trying to make policies span multiple states given how the Northeast and New England editing community spans many states.
Now the question becomes do we need to clarify point #2 regionally since the USA wiki defers to local guidance. I would say so.
My personal opinion? We make too much of all this. This doesn’t affect routing. It is a cute feature with no impact. We should just try to simply meet driver expectations. If typical drivers will see a speed limit as being there, set it. On top of that, even if not posted but there is a legal limit, do it, drivers will at least get a warning limit to slow down that they may appreciate when they pass a radar gun.
My one exception: ramps. Because we have such strong national guidance And because the advisory limits posted are often quite low because of trucks. Setting it to the advisory, even if it meets expectations of many, will cause spurious, annoying warning to those who go faster intentionally and know that it is allowed (or that they can get away with it, even if they don’t realize it is really allowed).
Something that looks clearly like a toy sign - probably not, use a little judgement.
). Also, maybe if a ramp, for example, is large enough to have an actual “native” speed limit - like with a white sign - we should be asking ourselves whether those segments should be ramps or an appropriate highway type instead, right?