Hi All,
I would like to keep you informed about road types to be used during your editings :
Freeways - All Highways Ramps - only segments connecting Freeways, Major Roads, Minor Roads Major roads - roads with 3 carriage lanes per driving directions; speed limit 110 km/h ; no
traffic lights ; no connection to any side road Minor roads - roads with 1 -2 carriage lanes per driving directions, speed limit 90 km/h
Primary roads - roads with 70 km/h limit and main roads in any town.
Street - all other roads
In a Town- main roads are setted as Prymary
Railroad - Waze does not support railroads. When setting Type roads as “Raildoad” it will
never be seen on the client. Per International agreement, railroads have to be edited as
such :
City Name : no one
Street name : Željeznica
Road Type : walking trails
Level : - 5
Lock : level 5 ( youcan require it when editung railroads)
Railroads can be edited using several segments but all segments have to be conneced both
directions , othervise the system will create a Map Problem
It is important to edit in such a way because the type of roads has effect on the routing time calculation.
Dear Asterix06,
thank you for your post, but could you please explain where those road type definitions come from?
I know that some countries use waze road types in a different way.
I really have a problem with those definitions that you send us and I also think it might irritate many other Waze Editors in Croatia. With yourdefinitions the Croatian map would be mainly paved with minor highways and primary roads!
I only know one or two -by your definition-major roads in whole Croatia.
On the other Hand there are primary streets (Slavonska/Zagrebacka/Ljubljanska-Avenija - 60-80km/h speed limit) in Zagreb, but with 3 or even more lanes per driving direction and they are in fact the -let’s say- “Mayor roads” of the City.
Shall we really redefine them as Primary Street? At the moment they are marked red (Mayor-H.).
PS: I must say, that there are some streets in Zagreb marked red, which really don’t deserve it. But that’s what this discussion is for (to set some helpful editing rules and to do things a little better).
Like I said, by your definition, Zagreb would only have 2 main road types (street and primary street). If we should edit like you say, I would finally say: “thank you all for a having a good time…I’m out of The -getting useless- Social Navigation Thing called Waze”
I think you will agree that we all need a Navigation that is useful and gives us a good and fast overview of the roads and destinations we drive to. And in fact we need some rules to edit the map in that way. But you should consider that every country has its own specific road infrastructure and legislation. Things that may work in Italy, France or Germany might be useless in Namibia, Australia and our little Croatia.
The definitions you suggest, or let’s say dictate to us are hard to explain to every single Croatian Map-Editor. I’m the last, who wants a chaos on the map, but I’m sure, there will be chaos with those definitions on our Croatian Waze Map. Nobody would really know how to define a street-type.
:idea: I think we need definitions, that will suit our needs and type of roads
…and I prefer a definition that might be close to the above mentioned german definition for waze maps:
Freeway: Autput (A),
Mayor: Državna cesta (D),
Minor: Županijska Cesta (Ž),
Primary: Localna Cesta (L),
Street: Cesta, …
With your definitions, I think we will get problems any many confused waze users:
This is quite clear…no problem with that
They (nearly) don’t exist in Croatia
This would (nearly) be EVERY road outside of town (speed-limit in Croatia is 90km/h). I know Regions in Croatia where little villages a crossed-linked with such roads. “Voila”, I would have regions paved only with Minor-Highways. So I would have to re-edit many primary, even normal streets to the status of a Minor Road/Highway…that’s really great (bullshit)!!! :evil:
In Croatia we are -normally allowed to drive 90km/h outside of the town (that’s a minor highway, right!?) and 50km/h inside of a town/village. So we would have a lot of primary roads that we can only find in the borders of a town, and an army of minor highways out of town. :shock:
This is quite clear…no problem with that
[b]
On the other side I read in the international Waze-Forum- It is said that Waze uses the average measured (GPS) speed for the calculation of routes. So I don’t understand your argument.[/b]
I really think we have to discuss this topic and hopefully bring it fast to an end and getting a tailored definition for Croatia. Our State is in Problems because we just copy-paste rules and laws from different countries, without to fit them to our local needs and premises. I hope we won’t do so with Waze. :idea:
Now I’m tired and need some sleep!
All the best to you all, good night!
Hi Sebastijan73,
I appreciate a lot your answer so we can set together a Road Type Definition for Croatia: that’s why I started from a certain point of view.
As you noticed , in the last Wiki update, the roads definitions has been modified possibly " without limitations" in order to let every country to adapt Waze Road type to local situation.
Let me start from your last question, to explain why it’s really important to choose the correct Road Type
[b]
On the other side I read in the international Waze-Forum- It is said that Waze uses the average measured (GPS) speed for the calculation of routes. So I don’t understand your argument.[/b]
In reality Waze calculates the speed of each segment in such way :
50% of speed limit settled by default on every road type +
50% or the REAL sped measured by Waze on such a segment ( as you said " uses the average measured (GPS) speed ")
So if you say in town you have a speed limit of 50 Km/h and you edit a road as Major road (see Zagreb) when you set a destination the system will calculate :
50% of Waze default speed limit (110Km/h) = 55 Km/h
50% of REAL speed limit recorded by waze (let say 50 km/h) = 25 km/h
That means each segment of your MAJOR road is considered at 75 km/h…what is wrong because you have a limit in town of 50 km/h …and that’s why in Town we normally edit the most important roads in a town as primary (to make the map more easy to be understood - mainly using map Editor skin)
They (nearly) don’t exist in Croatia
Ok so you decide the few road could be edited as MAJOR ROAD
You gave such a road definition
IMHO your definition is correct (no matter if German or Italian type), but I would like you to keep in mind what are the default speeds used by Waze :
Major Highway - 110 Km/h
Minor Highway - 90 km/h
Primary - 70 Km/h
so whatever type of roads you should decide to associate to :
Major Highway
Minor Highway
Primary
Should be in line with the speed limits listed above.
Any proposal is welcome but has to follow such criteria.
Remember that basemap does not recognize
Mayor: Državna cesta (D),
Minor: Županijska Cesta (Ž),
so in almost every Country all roads had to be re-edited in the correct road type.
Is is hell of a job but it has to be done !
In our country , for example, all road on the base map were Major and Minor so we had to re-edit almost over 1.000.000 kms, but it has to be done.
(Sorry, I couldn’t find the link in English so quickly)
I would recommend to have larger connections without using (toll-)freeway as “major highway”. Typically these could be the Exx roads. You may also want to check OSM or http://www.falk.de - the latter has may map providers you can choose and compare.
"Major roads - roads with 3 carriage lanes per driving directions; speed limit 110 km/h ; no
Traffic lights; no connection to any side road (mine worlds)
They (nearly) don’t exist in Croatia"
I do not se the real need to have more Major roads than they are in reality.
For the rest it is important to follow the rules when associating Croatian road types to the Waze ones
I’m asking myself which rules we really have to follow, as there are more than one rule worldwide.
Fact is, that the road network in the States, Italy and the Australian one (that you linked to) is totally different from the Croatian one.
In Zagreb we have some innercity streets, where you are allowed to drive 60-80km/h…normally it’s 50km/h innercity and 90km/h out of the city.
Like svx-biker said, I experienced problems with navigating longer distances, because there where no highways (and with your definition dear asterix06 they still wouldn’t be highways or even primary streets).
I appreciate your knowledge in the field of editing streets in Waze, but I am still not comfortable with your definitions for the roadtypes.
For me the priority is first of all, that I’ll get a route, that will show me the best/shortest/fastest route to my destination. With your rules I get only a route that uses the freeway, and that one is most of the time everything else but the fastest. The possibilty of waze to calculate the time for a route is for the croatian traffic is from secondery importance.
(Google Translation German2English):
[b] route calculation for long distances: [/ b]
Which road types the Waze routing uses depends on the distances.
0-15 km - All types of roads are included into the routing.
Note: This also applies to the category of “Non-Drivable”
15-20 km - all road types except Streets.
20-30 km - all road types except Streets and Primary Streets.
30-200 km - Only Minor, Major and freeways.
more than 200 km - only freeways.
More information about this in the Quick Help on the Support page. Enter in the nanoRep box, type the word “penalty”.
Dear Asterix06,
I hope you recognize my dilemma. I totally agree with you, that there have to be clear rules we have to follow, but I really do not see them waze/world-wide.
I understand the problem with the routing and the penalty-time, and why you want us to follow the speed-limit rules. But on the other hand, we will get the local/croatian problem, that we don’t get a usefull navigation at all. At the Moment I get better navigation routes with google-maps and most of the other Navi-System then with Waze. Even if (in some cases) the density of roads is far better in Waze then in the other Maps. After re-editing the existing streets to Highways, I had better results.
It all wouldn’t be a problem, if waze would have something in between primary street and minor highway, then we could follow your definition and wouldn’t have the problem with the routing.
And it seems, that there are things to come:
According me Sebastijan is not so much the problem of the roads to 2/3 lanes for Zagreb both those for the rest of Croatia such as the “D3” Rijeka-Zagreb for which the general limit and of 50-80 km / h full of curves and asphalt ruined by snow and passing through the towns where there are often speed controls and this way the value and set as Major h.
I do not think you can do this.
Like this in my example, there are many roads and I do not want to list!
FOR EXAMPLE:
I wonder if a person who is not from here (foreigner) driving on our streets, seeing who can drive from Rijeka to Zagreb and for the A6 (Freeway) for D3 (Mayor in waze) with the difference that you pay for and A6 the D3 not decide to go for the D3, not knowing that the last and very slow (it usually takes at least twice as long) what will think of Editor Croats and what mood he?
Conclusion I think the D3 should be at most Minor-h.
Sebastijan
I am perfectly aware of what you wrote , penalties, Ehud worlds and so on.
But what I appreciate the most in your words is that routing in Croatia is better with other navigators than Waze.
In these days we are working very hard to modifie the routing system, and when it will be ready (I hope within a coupe of month) we will have to stick as much as possible to road types (that will not be changed in any way) in order to get even better results than other navigators.
I realize you have a mixup of road, so we could think in this way (just for talking).
It would be possible, even if not perfect, to say :
main roads outside city boundaries -minor roads
main roads in towns primary
major roads - it seems to be very few so you can list them
all others - street
Freeways - all higways
I think to that because, as you wrote that your road are something in between minor/primary ,even the default speed settled by waze between the two road type is not so big, so there would not big a significant difference in ETA calculation.
svx_biker stated the type of roads waze should use for routing calculation …but if all road are edited using correct road typer as they stated, that’ s why I have done such a suggestion.
Nothing is sperfect , (obviously), but if the main network of your roads is mainly done by minor and primary, we should concentrate on that !
So resuming,
Out of freeways an the few Major,
the main road network between towns could be made with minor roads
the main road network in city boundary area could be made with primary roads
all the other roads should be streets .
Please do not blame my suggestion, there will always be local exceptions, but here we are trying to set general rules to be followed by all editors
Dear Asterix06,
I am still waiting for some of our other croatian wazers to comment on this Topic.
In the meantime I would like to ask you for a favour:
Before the croatian wazers decide what to do, please stop editing Zagreb and locking streets with Level 5. You changed some streets (for example Vukovarska) to a primary street and locked it, on the other hand there are now some minor roads which are smaller then Vukovarska with a marked as Minor Highway.
If you want to change it all, go ahead, but do it properly!
Have you ever been in Zagreb or even in Croatia?
Please don’t take it personal, but this behaviour sucks!
PS: I took a look at the Streets in Palermo. There are Mayor-Highways and in Street-View you can see, that there is a speed-limit of 50km/h. So please, if you really want to clean up…begin in Italy!
Apologies for invading your forum, but I am following this thread with interest. I also don’t agree with asterix’s proposal.
My main concern is where a Highway changes number of lanes or speed limit at various points, requiring a change of road type. It’s not necessary for good routing, and looks ugly on the map.
In the UK we set road type by their classification, and keep them for their entire length. Even when a national highway drops to 1 lane and 50 km/h it is still a national highway and the most important road in that area.
I can see from your various posts that you have some pretty strong arguments on the matter… Unfortunately :?, I’m still in the group that is against the use of Major Highway road type for our state roads (D-labeled - “Državna cesta”) simply because of the fact that those roads are not of that kind (2-3 lanes, max speed 110 km/h). I totally agree with asterix06’s proposed scheme for our country with the existing road types at our disposal in WME.
In the same time, I can do nothing else but agree with you that the problem of the road segmentation actually exists, which is obvious from many posts written on the topic, but I can’t help myself thinking that your approach of resolving the same is kind of wrong bacause in the very end it would only be a workaround. I noticed you’ve spent a great amount of time in search of details, definitions and also writing to other communities (i.e. Austrian-German) in an effort to defend your stance (which I applaud because it only shows your passion and your eagerness to resolve this issue) but I would be a lot happier if you used the same energy and knowledge (your pretty good use of english for example) writing directly to the WAZE creators/admins explaining what is missing in the system and what are your suggestions to resolve this (in our case some more road types or subtypes). And if in the end they do actually add them that would be a huge improvement for the whole community because I think we are not the only country with this kind of problem and most importantly we wouldn’t be building our navigation based on workarounds…
I would also like to emphasize two important things asterix06 and Timbones mentioned on which I agree:
…many area managers on My country are following estabished rules ( whatever they are)
…we set road type by their classification, and keep them for their entire length
So as I said before I do not think so much about the city of Zagreb as the rest of Croatia.
My suggestion is to do so:
Zagreb leave for the time being as he says Sebastian
The roads linking two major cities such as Zagreb and Rijeka and for which the driving speed never exceeds 70 km / h on the way there are many vilaggi to put as Minor Highway
Put the Major Highway only on very few roads (if any) that have at least two lanes in each direction and a speed of at least 90 km / h
Freeway all highways
What do you think?
I would like to hear what you all think!
P.S. I also like Danijel Pavelic I agree with what they wrote Asterix and Timbones.
Dear Asterix06, I think you understood me totally wrong! Why would I care that much about the topic, when I didn’t want a rule we can follow. But that doesn’t mean that I totally agree with your suggested definition! I can totally understand that you want to set the roadtypes by speed and lanes, and if there wasn’t the problem with the lack of roadtypes in Waze I would instantly agree with your definition.
As i said, I can totally understand it from this point of view. I would’nt define those roads as mayor Highways. But keeping the mayor-highway out of use, will lead us to another problem (see below)
I totally agree!
I would be delighted if Waze would give us more roadtypes, but I’m quite sure that they won’t do so, hopefully I’m wrong!
Dear Kiki, I also do think about whole croatia and not only of Zagreb. If we should decide to follow Asterix06-Rules, then this suggestion (separating mayor-cities from the roadtype-sheme (Zagreb, Split, Rijeka, Zadar, Osijek, Varazdin,…) could be a possibility to clean up some mess, but it would be only a workaround and not a clear defined rule. Is this what we want?
So please let me explain my thoughts in a scenario:
I really would be fine with NOT using Mayor-Highways because we in fact don’t have (m)any roads that fit (3lanes/110kmph), but this will lead us to another problem!
There are only two roadtypes (Minor & Primary) left which would define main roads. Perhaps this wouldn’t be a problem in italy, where you have a lot of Mayor-Highways connecting the cities, but in Croatia we don’t have this that much, every village is connected with more or less good roads.
There are roads that are for sure no 3-lane, or even 2 lane Mayor-Highways like the D2 “Slavonika” (Varazdin-Osijek), but they are the shortest and fastest way to reach some cities. In my opinion this fact has to be visible on the map of every smartphone!
So let’s say we define those important interconnection-streets (D1, D2, D8 (Jadranska Magistrala), and a only a few more) as Minor Highway (even if they go through some cities and have speed-limits >50km/h), then there are only streets left, that are of minor priority. Those streets should be defined as primary streets, right!?
So let’s say we define those streets (which would be all minor State-, County-, Local- and all the Main-Streets of a city) as primary streets, then we would have a network of primary streets, which are of totally different nature (some are Fast, some are narrow, some have a lot of speed-limits, some not!, some will lead you out of the city/pampa, some not! …).
And now you still have the roadtype “street” left for another bunch of totally different streets. Some streets are the only link to a village, but should normaly be defined as dirt-road (but then they would be out of the navigation-system/calculation!) some others are two lane innercity roads.
This will be a huge problem for the navigation!
If you keep in mind what svx-biker told us about the calculation for the navigation:
If I would like to drive to a city thats for example 80km away, the navigation will calculate a route, that uses only minor-highways and freeways (as we don’t have mayor-highways by definition). At the end, I will get a 20-30km longer route the freeway and paying the toll. And while I want to look for myself on the Smartphone if there is a better route by using local-streets, I will not see one of those alternative streets in that zoom-level,… so I will have to park the car, zoom in and out, and keep on trying to find a perfect route to my destination. Thats not useful!
I hope you all understand my dilemma!
[b]So…long story - short: What shall we do?
Can we really contact Waze to get another roadtype (or even two), that we can use instead of a Mayor-Highway. And with this really find a useful definition for roadtypes
Can we use the existing roadtypes and define/find a better system that really suits our needs
or
shall we use Asterix06 definition [/b]
PS: I wish you all together a happy easter, surrounded by your family and friends.
I do not understand this thing because I zoom in Istria I put all the stade that connect the various cities such as H Minor and on my iPhone 5 can be seen by zooming Pula-Kopar that have a distance of about 100 km and after that I only the Freeway and perhaps even Major H. Instead on the iPhone 4 Minor H see them with zooming Rovinj-Kopar that are at a distance of about 80 km.
Looking a little better then the Italy I do not see so many Major H! Even Milan is huge has a few!
I’m still of the idea that the connections between various cities should use the Minor H (perhaps make the exception where there are fast roads with two lanes in each direction).
Try to see in Istria and tell me what you think? You could do that or not?
Dear Kiki, I know the Istria-Peninsula quite well, and I must say it’s not really comparable to the rest of Croatia. You have the Istrian “Y” in the middle…and only a few other main roads. It’s quite hard to get lost in Istria. So it’s a bad example for setting rules for whole croatia.
PS: perhaps there is a difference between iOS and Android
It is possible that there are differences between iOS and Android do not deny it, I have not had the chance to test Waze on Android.
I put in Istria as an example only for measurements in km Zoom and no training for its natural and quantity of roads.
The streets of Zagreb seem a little too large views on iOS and I think it would be much cleaner and visible with the type of Minor H (just a guess).
For what I think would be nice to TRY to put all the roads that are now Major H in Minor H and make a comparison (before and after the change)?
I am aware that a lot of work to do and if you agree I can do by myself or with the help of other volunteers.
P.S. After the tests done we can put things back as they were before the test or leave them changed, it is quite immaterial as long as you come to a logical conclusion, practical and correct!
I have nothing against a test, and I totally agree that there are far too much mayor highways in Zagreb.
I already wanted to change some of them to minor highways but they are locked for my level.
Perhaps Asterix could unlock them, so that we can start the test.
But never the less, we have to think about setting our own rules in the near future.
I don’t want to repeat my thoughts about this topic, but we really have to think about the right way.
Perhaps a test wouldn’t be that bad.
As for the test:
I would like to concentrate the editing of the main outercity roads. There are State and County roads that are still marked as normal streets…and that’s bad for the navigation. So I would suggest, that we form a team, and clean up some mess concentrating on special type of roads every week, beginning with the D Roads. I started this Test-Edit already in Medjimurje County, Zumberak, etc
(though I marked the D Roads as Mayor, I’m fine with setting them back to minor, afterwards if we really should decide so)
PS:Asterix, do you know who we could contact at Waze for asking about another roadtype?
Instead that we are all wasting our time in discussing the topic, and interpreting the rules in a different way, let them be a part of it!
:evil:
