Continue at crossroads

I’ve had 3 of these UR’s within as many days now and not all from the same user. I know this has been discussed before but I’m after a bit of clarity please as I think the global wiki is a little ambiguous.

I understand that by design Waze will not provide a ‘continue’ instruction for best continuation, but, are there any specific guidelines as to when to use TIO’s or is it down to individual editor discretion?

In this example, I can see how a continue instruction would be useful. The junction is a little staggered and the intersecting road has right of way. If I were to approach this junction, I would probably have a look at my sat nav in the absence of any audible instruction.

Cheers.

Some editors are of differing opinions whether we should be mapping these with a continue instruction or not. My opinion is that they should be using their windscreen - Waze shouldn’t be driving for them.

Clarity from CAs would be appreciated.

For your example, I wouldn’t put a continue, and I wouldn’t separate them. It’s fine as it is.

I agree Waze shouldn’t be driving for them. I am not suggesting the ‘continue’ instruction is a means of alerting the driver to the fact that there is an approaching junction where they need to give way, but more of a confirmation of which way they need to go. I don’t think it’s fair to assume that everyone who uses Waze knows that they should just keep going straight forwards unless told otherwise and I think the number of URs are evidence of that.

In an unfamiliar place where you rely on Waze (or any other sat nav for that matter) for directions, I personally think for a junction like this a continue instruction would be more of a help than a hindrance or distraction.

Unfortunately this is as divisive with the Country Managers as it is with any other level. There a a few limited circumstances where the continue instruction is useful away from crossroads.

I am of the same opinion as Keith, the large forward viewing port is an amazing feature on most vehicles :lol: The arguments for the instruction boil down to bad signage, limited visibility, and the scary dangerous junction. However, these are all subjective to the driver. If a junction really does need better signage, lighting, or even a safety review the only people that can truly improve the junction is the Local Authority and Waze should not be relied upon as a safety net.

We very rarely map for the minority of users, however there are some editors who do add the TIO for these situations. I would like to suggest you try to limited them to rural locations. I don’t believe there are any editors in the UK that would deliberately remove any TIO in this situation, leave a Map Comment :wink:

This argument is lost on me. The large viewing port does not tell you which way to go. If that was the case we wouldn’t need sat nav at all.

It may not tell you where to go but help spotting the road ahead of you if you are not told to turn.

I have found the draft guidelines posted back in June 2017 when this feature was enabled - Continue TIO guidelines.

Thanks and sorry to bring this up again. I’d not realised it had already been discussed at length :lol:

This comment struck a chord with me:

That said, I’d probably only be inclined to give this instruction at crossroads where you don’t have right of way and I repeat it’s not because I think the user should be alerted to the fact a junction is approaching. It is purely for navigational reasons.

I thought about starting a thread on this before, so thanks to titchy for posting and Chris for the link to the previous thread.
I’d probably put “give way at crossroads” UR’s as the second most common type that I see after postcode errors. I’ve always apologised to users and said its UK policy not to add instructions. My own preference is for them to be added a) where a minor road crosses a major road, b) in rural locations and c) where a user leaves a UR (i.e. we don’t proactively seek them out and add them)
I don’t really agree with the argument that users should use the windscreen here…we could use that reasoning to remove voice instructions when driving straight on at a standard roundabout. It always feels odd to me when Waze says nothing at this type of junction, and a lot of punters agree judging by the URs that appear.
I have had them removed in the past when I’ve applied them, so I’ll leave a map comment in the future in the hope that they remain.

I am pretty strongly against them, for much the same reasons given above. There are limited circumstances where they are valid at a crossroad - poor visibility, signs etc. But there are many reasons against them.

“Continue” is not the same as “Give Way”. There’s a good argument that being told to “continue” might be seen as implying right of way - so giving that instruction where the opposite is true is problematic.

If you want to argue that an instruction is needed when there are clear road markings and signs to indicate a give-way/stop, then how far do you want to take it? Should there be a “continue” instruction at all traffic lights when you’re going straight on? If you’re passing a side road, do you need a “continue” to drive past it? Should every motorway junction say continue if you’re not exiting? IMO Waze’s job is to provide brief concise instructions when the driver needs to make a routing decision and otherwise shut up and let the driver concentrate on their own responsibility - looking at the road in front of them and responding appropriately to road markings, signs, other vehicles etc.

Consistency is another major problem. If you think that using continue at rural junctions is correct, then where do you stop? How rural does it need to be. Even if there was a very clear-cut borderline, we’d still end up with a clearly inconsistent map where some junctions have continue instructions and some don’t - and however clear we think the boundary is, the users will not understand and will complain either way.

How valid are user complaints, really? This is a common complaint, although I’d say nowhere the top 5-10. But the majority of URs are, frankly, rubbish. Users will complain the speed is wrong because the app is 2 seconds late in changing. Many postcode complaints are misunderstanding the fact that a postcode is always an area and never a point. They raise URs because of traffic. They raise URs at home because they’re trying out the app (the sign of a new Waze user used to be a UR, a speed cam, a dummy cam and a RLC all on top of a residential building). And that brings me to cameras - before camera reporting was removed from the app, the map was constantly littered with incorrect speed cameras - for CCTV, Trafficmaster cams, speed-activated warning signs, signs about speed camera. The point is that URs are not a terribly reliable justification. 10 users reporting the same junction as a problem - that’s real. 1 user isn’t worth more than a quick GSV check to see if there’s a real issue.

Lastly, there’s a problem involving WME itself. Simply put - TIOs are invisible in standard WME. I know we probably all use scripts to highlight their existence. But even then, you need to click on every segment connected to a junction to see what TIOs are there. Some situations are pretty obvious: when you have a Y split, or a street exit from a highway, or a complicated little one-way system, you know what the TIOs are doing there. But at a crossroads, it’s less obvious. Is it a difficult junction of some sort? Did one user complain? Has a new editor overridden the L/R instructions manually because he doesn’t know any better? Is it the idiot I dealt with a couple of months ago who added several hundred TIOs throughout London & Eastbourne? Every TIO is either an invisible change to otherwise clear routing, or a visible change that takes time/effort to check.

I won’t deny it - I do remove continue instructions that I consider entirely superfluous. But I do tend to trust the experienced editors we have here and leave those ones alone, even if I don’t agree with them being there. My advice would be, that if you think there’s a clear justification for a continue at a crossroads, leave a map comment there. Not only does it highlight something that is otherwise invisible without scripts, it also demonstrates that you have made a considered decision to alter the default instructions for a reason. That is something much more likely to be respected by other editors.

And, of course, if it’s too much effort to add that many comments, then I would suggest you’re adding too many continue instructions. :lol:

As the CMs will know :smiley: , I am very strongly for them to be added a give-way crossroads for the traffic approaching on the minor road.
The only exception I can understand would be some urban areas that might generate so many instructions to impact the user experience. I don’t regularly drive in cities so will accept the opinion of those that do.

The argument against seems to be focused on saying drivers should use their eyes and not need Waze to tell them to give way. I agree with this too.

The main point is that, having slowed/stopped at a give way line, drivers expect the sat-nav to confirm what direction they should proceed in. As others have said, it is not to alert them to the need to give way - it is a navigational need and part of the natural verbal instructions you would give to someone for that route.

There are plenty of examples of drivers using the last verbal instruction of 'in <distance> turn left/right" which of course relates to a future turn, and then making a wrong turn at these types of junctions.

I am constantly seeing URs requesting these in both rural and urban settings including clear comments complaining that this is a fault in Waze when compared to other sat-navs.
I have never seen a subsequent UR asking for one to be removed.

When I have asked real people (i.e. not editors :wink: but both Waze users and non-users Waze) whether they would want an instruction, the answer is always Yes or Probably, nobody has ever said No. Not one.

Yes, it’s a big task. Yes, it will need maintenance and WME has its flaws … but we have an army of willing editors and script writers (or at least a few mad people who will spend days doing this :lol:)
I believe this would be a clear improvement in user experience that users want and we should change the guidelines.

Precisely that.

To further complicate the discussion has anyone else noticed that English (UK)- Kate says ‘Go straight on’ for turns with 'Continue’ TIO set? Gives a different meaning at some junctions.

Yes, but does that mean that “continue” is used by others and produces ambiguity?
Kate gives street names and has been my preferred for some time.

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In fact, the instruction on the app is ‘straight on’, not continue, so even the wording in WME is not correct.

I suspect that’s just the various translation files for UK English for the app and WME. We could probably find the WME text and change that to be consistent.

Is this a good example of when a ‘Continue’ TIO should be used? permalink
I’ve just set TIO’s at this junction as both roads are Primary Street so there would be no indication of priority until you’re at the junction.

IMO Yes
Very useful when heading East as the A350 junction is not far, so the app will now say “Go straight on and then turn left”. If users stop at the crossroads and the next Waze instruction is “Turn Left” (i.e. advance notice of A350) then they might turn left here in error.

Having just dealt with yet another unannounced crossroads UR, it feels like the appropriate time to add my tuppence ha’penny into the debate…

In my experience, most of the URs (including this most recent one) I’ve dealt with from users complaining about the lack of any instructions at crossroads are precisely because they were expecting Waze to tell them about the upcoming junction, and not because they were complaining about not knowing which way to drive off again having stopped to give way to the major road.

Given the incredibly important point Iain raised earlier about any instruction being potentially misinterpreted as an indication that the user has priority over the crossing traffic, and given that after just shy of 30 years I can still hear the words of my driving instructor in my mind as clearly as if she was sat right next to me - “follow the road ahead until I or the signs say otherwise” - I’m firmly of the opinion that we shouldn’t be giving instructions if it ought to be clear to a semi-competent driver which way they ought to go in order to follow the “road ahead”. If it was good enough for a younger me with only a learner driver’s worth of road sense, it ought to be good enough for anyone :smiley:

Times have changed. In 80% of driving tests the examiner will now say “follow the directions of the sat nav”.
Driving instructors and driving tests are not the normal scenario and that is not the natural instructions we give to each other.

Imagine you are sitting next to a friend, giving them directions on an unfamiliar route.
Would you say “follow the road ahead until I or the signs say otherwise” and then shut up?
… or would you give helpful instructions as you go along like “you need to go straight on at the next crossroads”?

I had another one yesterday. I wonder if we did make the change whether there’d be half as many queries from people saying “Waze told me to continue when I should have stopped”.

The point that this is potentially dangerous contradicts the other point raised so many times that drivers should be using the big window in front of them.