At the crossroads, continue - please upvote!

Is anyone else bored of having conversations with users about the lack of instruction at rural crossroads? I know this subject has caused a fair bit of debate and has divided opinion but surely with the amount of URs this generates, something should be done about it? I get at least 2 a week and only look after a small portion of the country.

I created a suggestion in the Waze Uservoice. If you agree, an upvote would help: link

If you’re new to this, this is one of the many threads discussing it.

Today’s example.

Personally I feel it should be a voice command as I think Waze does have a duty also to warn of issues which might be a hazard.

After all Waze will inform you of many things, it does seem odd that potential dangers are ignored such as junctions which can be hidden until you are almost on top of them.

But not everyone agrees.

This is the stance I take! The more information we can give the driver the better, every little helps :smiley:

But on the flip side, and this is just me playing devil’s advocate, you could argue that all motorists should be travelling at an appropriate speed and be able to stop in the distance they can see is safe, being able to react and respond to signage or road markings that suggests a junction priority is against them.

Don’t get me wrong, I too get equally as frustrated by the constant URs related to rural crossroads, however it should surely also be considered that the more we ask Waze to be vocal and get involved, the more we are potentially distracting the road user from the act of being in control of their vehicle and being responsible for their actions on the road rather than being reliant on technology to carry out the driving for them.

But then at the same time shouldn’t drivers be able to navigate with road signs and not rely on GPS to get to their destination? Bit of an extreme example but yeah there are infinite arguments here I feel like :frowning:

Touche!! :lol:

Waze is there to tell the driver what route to take. Turn left, Take the second exit, Keep right, Use the left two lanes etc are all directions to follow, not instructions of how to drive the route.
If we start adding Continue instructions at crossroads drivers will come to expect to hear it, leaving Waze potentially at blame for not telling drivers at junctions that haven’t been mapped yet. We’d have to map every crossroads for consistency.

It’s not Waze’s job to tell a driver how to drive, should we also map alerts for
Traffic lights & pedestrian Crossings? (Traffic light junction ahead, prepare to stop if the light is red)
Zebra Crossings? (pedestrian crossing ahead, look out for pedestrians waiting to cross)
Corners with advisory speed reductions? (Sharp corner ahead, prepare to slow down)
Cycle paths (Turn left onto Main St, caution cycle lane crossing junction, prepare to give way to cyclist)
How far do we go?

I guess I’ve given my two pence numerous times over the years, so I’ll keep it short:

  • I’d agree with having continue instructions at certain junctions. I also find the constant URs tiring, but I’ve kind of given up now.
  • The argument that Waze would give too much information works the other way as well. e.g. if we don’t give straight on instructions at a crossroads, then why do we give straight on / 2nd exit instructions at standard roundabouts?
  • The French have, in my opinion, sensible guidelines on how to map these junctions. Section 3.3.5 here: https://wazeopedia.waze.com/wiki/France/Intersections_TIO
    Google translated:
    The intersections of major roads in the countryside are potentially dangerous. In order to warn of the approach of such an intersection, the instruction “Continue straight” is added on the road having a stop sign or give way.
    [i]The following three conditions must be met to apply this rule:

Roads of type “Primary street” or more
Roads outside built-up areas
Presence of a stop sign or a give way sign[/i]

My area:
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=53.09084&lon=0.09184&s=8576097583071&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=19083205
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=52.89312&lon=-0.37594&s=8576097583071&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=19074849
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=53.21470&lon=-0.63286&s=8576097583103&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=18915420
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=51.32717&lon=-2.13684&s=8576097583103&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=19050184
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=51.95341&lon=-2.53732&s=8576097583103&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=18970261
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=51.88961&lon=-2.71681&s=8576097583103&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=18990710
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=51.88945&lon=-2.71654&s=8576097583103&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=18988177
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=51.88942&lon=-2.71650&s=8576097583103&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=18959993
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=51.61112&lon=-2.19587&s=8576097583103&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=19058553
https://waze.com/en-GB/editor?env=row&lat=51.61225&lon=-2.19772&s=8576097583103&zoomLevel=17&mapUpdateRequest=18921496

The French are right about a lot of things. In light of the above, I think this is perhaps one of them. :wink:

Don’t agree with that at all. Mapping every crossroads is not necessary and not at all my suggestion. I can’t think of one occasion a user has flagged this type of issue in a built up area.

This is being over-thought.

I’m not sure if you saw the give way sign at the example I gave? It’s not a perfect example because at this junction there is a 170yd warning, but I suspect this issue can be quite common in the countryside:

A personal opinion (not speaking as CM):

  • in deciding whether to give an instruction or not, editors should consider what is visible on wet night with heavy traffic. Signs, and even more road paint, that are obvious in Google Streetview may not always be so east to spot. And many rural signs disappear into a hedge in summer.

  • I tend to think “where should I go now” whenever I am forced to stop. On the other hand, I don’t welcome constant chatter from the SatNav (or my passenger, but that’s another issue ;)). So I’m inclined to go with a “continue/go straight” at rural give-ways, but not at urban ones.

Also my personal opinion. I can never support such an idea until such time as the app can give a “give way/stop ahead” instruction, as to give any instruction which might be misinterpreted as indicating that the user has priority over the road they’re about to cross isn’t something I can accept us deliberately doing.

This thought may have been behind the decision to translate “continue” (as it appears in the map editor) into “go straight” (as it is spoken by the app).
I don’t see that “go straight” implies a priority any more than “turn left” or “turn right” does. And Waze frequently says “go straight” on the approach to a mini-roundabout (and we can’t stop it giving an instruction at roundabouts) so any Wazer misinterpreting “go straight” in this way is going to have a crash sooner rather than later whatever we do at crossroads.

The problem I have with this crossroads proposal is that, at other types of junction, the instructions given now are consistent regardless of which route you take through it - i.e. regardless of the path you’re taking through a junction, or what restrictions there may be on you being able to follow it freely (give way/stop lines, traffic lights, oncoming traffic etc.), the app simply tells you which direction you need to go to follow that path. So you get the same “turn left” (say) instruction when turning off the main road into a side road as you do when turning out of the side road onto the main road, even though those two moves have differing priorities and requirements placed on the user in order to complete the turn safely/legally.

As such, at present users can be told, if they haven’t already figured it out for themselves, that the instructions Waze provides are there solely to indicate which direction they need to proceed at times when it might not be instantly obvious (as my old driving instructor used to say - “follow the road ahead unless I or the signs say otherwise”…), and should not also be used as a way of inferring anything else about the nature of the route they’re being asked to follow.

However, when we start talking about adding “go straight/continue/whatever the hell it translates into for any given version of the app/translation data” instructions to a crossroads, we’re only ever talking about doing so on the minor axis. As such, for any crossroads where we add this instruction override, not only would we then be introducing an inconsistency in how crossroads behave at the basic route instruction level depending on whether your path through them follows the major (no instruction) or minor (go straight instruction) axis, but we’re ALSO introducing an additional explicit indication of priority - get the instruction, give way, don’t get the instruction, proceed as-is… Except for crossroads where we haven’t felt it necessary to add the override, in which case users who’s drives take them through both types of crossroads will end up having an even more inconsistent experience as they find some crossroads giving them this instruction whilst others don’t, without it necessarily being obvious to them why that is.

Note also that, on approach to a crossroads, a user won’t necessarily know they’re approaching one - unless they’re paying attention to the onscreen map and can see the geometry of the junction, there’s nothing about the verbal/written instructions they’re getting to indicate this. As we also use “go straight” at other junctions for good reason, it wouldn’t then be possible for users to simply learn that whenever they hear a “go straight” it means FOR CERTAIN that they’re approaching a somewhat poorly signposted/reduced visibility crossroads at which they have to give way/stop, so either they won’t give this instruction the level of importance we’re hoping they will in these instances, or they’ll end up over-reacting if they hear the same instruction being given at other times, due to their being conditioned into believing it means “watch out!”

Which is why I’m deeply uncomfortable in trying to “hack” the current instructions into providing more information to users than they’re intended to provide.

This isn’t rocket science though is it. There’s clearly a problem affecting Waze’s customer base which occurs on a daily basis. It’s not a one-off. Shouldn’t it be something we try to resolve? Whatever the solution, there has to be one. I just don’t believe ignoring it is the right course of action.

Sooner or later this will end up with an accident Waze will get blamed for.

There’s clearly a problem affecting some users, yes. But would it be rude of me to suggest the problem may lie more with those users than with Waze? Because if, on their driving test, they were unaware of the approaching crossroads based solely on what they could see through the windscreen ahead of them, and didn’t therefore slow/stop in a controlled manner as required, they’d not be earning their licence that day.

And without knowing how many users are passing through those crossroads without feeling the need to raise a UR, we simply don’t know what the scale of the problem actually is at those locations.

There’s then also the consideration that sometimes trying to fix what we perceive as a problem only ends up making things worse, and that sometimes doing nothing absolutely IS the right course of action to take given the current limitations of instructions the app can provide to users.

If, instead of Waze, they were being directed by a passenger who was giving them the same sort of instructions - “take the 2nd turn on the left”, “half a mile to the exit” etc - as Waze, but who also wasn’t aware of the crossroads and so didn’t give them any sort of warning of its existence, would it be reasonable for the passenger to get blamed for the accident?

If there’s no expectation from the driver that the directions they’re getting OUGHT to also include warnings about upcoming junctions, then any blame for failing to react correctly to such a junction lies with the driver and perhaps the council/road authority if they’ve been negligent in failing to properly maintain road signage/markings, cut back vegetation etc. No-one else, certainly not who or whatever was merely there to give them a hand in following their overall route that day, so whilst the driver might still try to blame Waze for not warning them, it’d be an easy accusation to defend against given that it’s not something we attempt to do, thus not something they should have expected us to do there.

On the other hand, if the driver DOES have a reasonable expectation that the directions they’re being given should include warnings about upcoming junctions - i.e. the position we’d be in if we adopted your proposal - and they have an accident due to such warnings not being given at a location where we didn’t realise they might be beneficial, then it’d be harder for us to shake off any blame.

And if Waze told these users to drive off a cliff, would they follow like robots and do it? I totally see both sides of the argument, but any car driver still has to remain 100% in control of their vehicle and be totally responsible for any decisions they do or do not take, rather than being dictated to by a mobile phone app that is simply there to give them general guidance to a specified destination.

A BMW driver followed his Sat Nav straight into river - is this the sat navs fault, or the drivers fault for not using their common sense?

Firstly, “some users” massively understates this problem IMO. Secondly, I’ve never once suggested the user is blameless here - they of course are ultimately responsible for being in control of their vehicle at all times. However, if we can do something which may save someone’s life, are we happy to wash our hands of it and say ‘not my problem, guv’?

Would the driver in this example be following a map with a line on it held up by the passenger? Unlikely. I’d imagine the vast majority of users of any sat nav use their screen for directions a lot. I know I do because I cannot fully trust verbal instructions. “Turn right in 50 yards” when there are several right turns could result in me taking the wrong one because the gps is so crap and lags behind.

I’ll not bother saying any more. I’ve made my point and sadly it seems the majority of editors disagree. Although it’s a shame that some higher rank editors have declined to get involved despite with them being for it in the past.

Ultimately the driver’s although who knows, depending on the situation a judge may sympathise. Could it have been avoided by accurate mapping? Yes.

I remember the infamous Rufford Ford in Nottinghamshire where until December 2022 it was a street with no restrictions. Waze took me that way to Rufford Golf Club one day. Depending on the water levels, Waze would be quite literally directing you into a river.